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Morrisoft

O&R 0.85hp (tiny tiger) - Carburetor parts? Coil refurb?

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Evenin' all.

 

While I await advice regarding the coil (I have an idea - more on that later), I've opened up the generator section to check the wiring - sure enough it's a bit of a mess and heavily corroded.

 

20171107_190756.jpg.d8d54a3e01ee207e61bfe8254ade8bba.jpg

 

I am tracing back the wiring to where it meets the motor windings, I assume I can safely replace these lengths with fresh wire - should I find some that's actually corrosion free of course.

 

IMG-20171107-WA0068.jpeg.441a9e7d3d7d1e448c82c8f4d342be93.jpeg

 

The big downside of this coming from the Philippines seems to be the humidity and the wiring! So much for. Any advice will be greatly received.

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There are two windings in the magneto coil, a low resistance primary winding with a low amount of turns of thick wire and a higher resistance secondary winding with many turns of very fine wire.

 

The two wires connected together are one end of each winding, these are grounded via the metal core of the coil, as they are not insulated they may still be connected together inside.

 

The thin insulated wire is other end of the primary winding and goes to the insulated bolt for the contact breaker compartment, the stop switch & capacitor wire are also connected here.

 

The high voltage end of the secondary goes to the spark-plug, the insulation of this wire looks damaged (heat-shrink sleeving can be used to repair this) and the plug cap is also missing.

 

I would check the resistance of both the primary & secondary windings if you have a multimeter and post the results here.

 

Not sure how easy it would be the open the casing around the two ground wires, you don't want to damage the insulated wire if you try or break the very fine secondary wire.

I used to open and repair small potted transformers (which were unavailable/obsolete) at work, the plastic casing could be broken off around the faulty area, gentle use of a small electric heat-gun to soften the potting compound, which could then be scrapped out in small bits to reveal the connections for re-soldering, araldite was used to replace the potting compound to complete the repair. I don't have most of the equipment to do this type of repair at home.

 

The number 151 stamped on to one of the crankcase flanges is the engine type, it represents the engine specification & options, I have a Tiny Tor (same as Tiny Tiger) that also has a type B151 engine. The letters were used on early engines, B is a tank mount engine.

There were letters or numbers used for many standard engine types with different options of tanks, various gearboxes, clutch and mounting types. Diagrams & parts lists for the standard types are usually in the master service manual, many manufacturers of tools & equipment with these engines would have ordered a custom specification engine.

 

David

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53 minutes ago, Morrisoft said:

Evenin' all.

 

While I await advice regarding the coil (I have an idea - more on that later), I've opened up the generator section to check the wiring - sure enough it's a bit of a mess and heavily corroded.

 

I am tracing back the wiring to where it meets the motor windings, I assume I can safely replace these lengths with fresh wire - should I find some that's actually corrosion free of course.

 

The big downside of this coming from the Philippines seems to be the humidity and the wiring! So much for. Any advice will be greatly received.

 

The generator stator windings do look more of a mess than usual, the rubber insulation of the wires always seems to disintegrate when disturbed, did the wires snap from corrosion too?

 

If you can identify the high & low voltage windings, it should be possible to connect up new wires, if you can find some good condition wiring to connect up to of course. Be careful to not damage the insulation on the stator windings.

 

You will probably need to clean the wire ends of corrosion for easier soldering, I recommend using a lead alloy based flux cored solder (not that modern unleaded solder rubbish, which requires more heat & has known reliability problems, it corrodes very easily too).

Tin the ends of the wires with solder before joining together and sleeve any joints with heat-shrink tubing to prevent shorts.

 

Here are some pictures from the restoration of my Tiny Tiger, it required the crumbling rubber wiring repairing, I took lots of pictures before disconnecting the wires and used different colour heat-shrink sleeving for identifying the low & high voltage windings.

 

SAM_7216a.jpg.20a3d60f18d7e26f784f6f8d5d652eb5.jpgSAM_7428a.jpg.f9a315216ab92e0ccde71e7beb81f0ce.jpgSAM_7431a.jpg.4028ae2f7c821d856a589ccf90e72342.jpgSAM_7432a.jpg.997e1589218b29626f7d1734f4cc42db.jpgSAM_7433a.jpg.eeb0a4e1ab43b0d93dfe7f85771276e4.jpgSAM_7435a.jpg.d2ab49bb9ca0e3e642cf3abf02e1e9c7.jpgSAM_7436a.jpg.7a4f0e10834a4a842e8b3bb576b1d7df.jpg

 

David

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12 hours ago, factory said:

 

The generator stator windings do look more of a mess than usual, the rubber insulation of the wires always seems to disintegrate when disturbed, did the wires snap from corrosion too?

 

If you can identify the high & low voltage windings, it should be possible to connect up new wires, if you can find some good condition wiring to connect up to of course. Be careful to not damage the insulation on the stator windings.

 

You will probably need to clean the wire ends of corrosion for easier soldering, I recommend using a lead alloy based flux cored solder (not that modern unleaded solder rubbish, which requires more heat & has known reliability problems, it corrodes very easily too).

Tin the ends of the wires with solder before joining together and sleeve any joints with heat-shrink tubing to prevent shorts.

 

Here are some pictures from the restoration of my Tiny Tiger, it required the crumbling rubber wiring repairing, I took lots of pictures before disconnecting the wires and used different colour heat-shrink sleeving for identifying the low & high voltage windings.

 

SAM_7216a.jpg.20a3d60f18d7e26f784f6f8d5d652eb5.jpgSAM_7428a.jpg.f9a315216ab92e0ccde71e7beb81f0ce.jpgSAM_7431a.jpg.4028ae2f7c821d856a589ccf90e72342.jpgSAM_7432a.jpg.997e1589218b29626f7d1734f4cc42db.jpgSAM_7433a.jpg.eeb0a4e1ab43b0d93dfe7f85771276e4.jpgSAM_7435a.jpg.d2ab49bb9ca0e3e642cf3abf02e1e9c7.jpgSAM_7436a.jpg.7a4f0e10834a4a842e8b3bb576b1d7df.jpg

 

David

 

David you're an absolute diamond my friend. Pretty sure you read my mind with the pictures as I was going to ask if you had more.

 

Fairly sure I can rewire from these pictures, I've stripped back all the crud and mess and gotten down to where the wires meet the windings as you'll see below.

1510145070666544397389.jpg.8a2d671d75713e3f8ea632bac55f73fc.jpg

 

Some spare speaker cabling came to the rescue with the rewiring, so far so good. Unfortunately I only have lead-free at the moment but plenty of solder flowed nicely onto the two outputs shown below.IMG-20171108-WA0005.jpeg.4ee69ab0211b0036e414c47f8f551749.jpeg

 

Interestingly enough those two original pieces of wiring survived without corrosion or even the insulation cracking, still fairly supple so I've reused these as the copper was nice and clean after cutting them free of the old crimps.

 

I'm going to use cable junction blocks to reattach the the two to the nipples inside the casing. Am I right in thinking the lower voltage windings clamp down to these?

 

On the core itself I have two sets of wiring - both bottom leads connect to a thicker and thin winding, whereas the two upper leads connect to singular thin winding - I'm just hoping to confirm before final rewiring/soldering occurs. See below.Screenshot_20171108-125407.png.b35de145967a5d599bc6fdf6a365be97.png

 

Cheers

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6 hours ago, Morrisoft said:

Some spare speaker cabling came to the rescue with the rewiring, so far so good. Unfortunately I only have lead-free at the moment but plenty of solder flowed nicely onto the two outputs shown below.

 

Interestingly enough those two original pieces of wiring survived without corrosion or even the insulation cracking, still fairly supple so I've reused these as the copper was nice and clean after cutting them free of the old crimps.

 

I'm going to use cable junction blocks to reattach the the two to the nipples inside the casing. Am I right in thinking the lower voltage windings clamp down to these?

 

On the core itself I have two sets of wiring - both bottom leads connect to a thicker and thin winding, whereas the two upper leads connect to singular thin winding - I'm just hoping to confirm before final rewiring/soldering occurs. See below.

 

Cheers

 

The wiring for the AC 110V outlet has plastic insulation (probably supplied with the bought in 110V outlet) which rarely goes bad in vintage electrical/electronics, rubber insulation on the other hand always seems to eventually turn to either dust or a gooey mess as you've found. We even had a modern rubber cable fail on a 2007ish Weller soldering iron at work, the inner cores crumbled to dust causing a short circuit & blew the fuse.

 

The two items in the casing with solid non-insulated wire leads are push fit diodes for rectifying the AC voltage to DC for the low voltage battery charging output. These will be connected to the thicker windings of the stator to provide the higher current required for charging. The ground lead is the wire on it's own on the other side of the stator.

 

The AC 110V outlet will be connected to the thinner windings of the stator, be careful not to snap these, you may want to re-secure the cables into the windings with lacing cord as they were before. Thinner cable from a scrap mains lead would have been fine for connecting up these, as the maximum current drawn will be much lower.

 

As for the the thin wires connected to the thicker winding, I've suspected they were as I got strange resistance readings when measuring mine. I will post a diagram of how I think it's all connected up when I've done some more measurements on mine as I didn't make any notes at the time.

 

David

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10 minutes ago, factory said:

 

The wiring for the AC 110V outlet has plastic insulation (probably supplied with the bought in 110V outlet) which rarely goes bad in vintage electrical/electronics, rubber insulation on the other hand always seems to eventually turn to either dust or a gooey mess as you've found. We even had a modern rubber cable fail on a 2007ish Weller soldering iron at work, the inner cores crumbled to dust causing a short circuit & blew the fuse.

 

The two items in the casing with solid non-insulated wire leads are push fit diodes for rectifying the AC voltage to DC for the low voltage battery charging output. These will be connected to the thicker windings of the stator to provide the higher current required for charging. The ground lead is the wire on it's own on the other side of the stator.

 

The AC 110V outlet will be connected to the thinner windings of the stator, be careful not to snap these, you may want to re-secure the cables into the windings with lacing cord as they were before. Thinner cable from a scrap mains lead would have been fine for connecting up these, as the maximum current drawn will be much lower.

 

As for the the thin wires connected to the thicker winding, I've suspected they were as I got strange resistance readings when measuring mine. I will post a diagram of how I think it's all connected up when I've done some more measurements on mine as I didn't make any notes at the time.

 

David

 

Ah brilliant. I'm glad you clarified this for me as that would have been interesting when firing it up for the first time.

 

Am i correct to assume it would simply have reversed the way outlets functioned if I'd wired it the other way around, making the 12v outlets 110v, and vice versa? 

 

Look forward to seeing the diagram, I can continue to replace/reinstate the wiring for now. I shall use different coloured electrical tape to enable me to identify the lower/higher voltage wiring as I only have black heatshrink and white cable of the appropriate gauge at the moment! 🙈

 

This is how things stand at the moment:

15101718677561923257258.jpg.66cce1fb61c7f37a3c4601e1cd8c5e8b.jpg

 

I will clean and tin the connections ready for soldering to new lengths of cable. In terms of clearance I imagine the space for cabling, once reassembled, is slightly tight so I'll try to keep these as short as I can work with.

 

Many thanks again David, you've been a tremendous help thus far!

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10 minutes ago, Morrisoft said:

Ah brilliant. I'm glad you clarified this for me as that would have been interesting when firing it up for the first time.

 

Am i correct to assume it would simply have reversed the way outlets functioned if I'd wired it the other way around, making the 12v outlets 110v, and vice versa?

 

Yes if wiring was reversed, the exposed battery charging terminals would have 110V across them, the diodes are probably only rated for low voltage (so could end up short circuited).

 

David

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On 08/11/2017 at 8:33 PM, factory said:

 

Yes if wiring was reversed, the exposed battery charging terminals would have 110V across them, the diodes are probably only rated for low voltage (so could end up short circuited).

 

David

 

Quick update with things..

Yesterday I managed to finally clear virtually all the goop from within the petrol tank, the fuel nipple with inline filter unfortunately remains blocked at the moment. On it's third soak of petrol as we speak.

 

The stator rewiring is now complete  as per your guidance regarding high (thin)/ low (thick+thin) orientation etc. Many thanks David!

Pictures are below, it was an incredibly tight fit once putting the two back together. I only hope the soldering is up to the job.

IMG_20171109_004650_358.jpg.4555a1b737592cc6c7abcc6d66d7eeb2.jpg

 

IMG_20171109_004650_373.jpg.eb768845bf9bd66d7aaf9d814ebd0d93.jpg

 

IMG_20171109_004650_395.jpg.aeebd26499db769476c67c35f03fd2cf.jpg

 

IMG_20171109_004650_393.jpg.31141a72f49d5eb812c368d93c2e2c08.jpg

 

IMG-20171109-WA0010.jpeg.8841302f5fff1f4827aa63e1e7a9af8c.jpeg

 

How easily it will go back together, given the difficulty involved in getting it separated, remains to be seen. 

 

More good news, this arrived with many thanks to webhead for his help.

IMG-20171110-WA0003.jpeg.03980a133a5457f5d84327e287c91096.jpeg

 

Just waiting on the diaphragm and needle-valve/spring and this should be good to give a test run with a temporary tank, unless it does finally unblock first! 

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On 11/8/2017 at 8:15 PM, Morrisoft said:

Look forward to seeing the diagram, I can continue to replace/reinstate the wiring for now. I shall use different coloured electrical tape to enable me to identify the lower/higher voltage wiring as I only have black heatshrink and white cable of the appropriate gauge at the moment! 🙈

 

I've done some resistance measurements of the stator windings of two 110V Tiger Tigers & the 230V Tiny Tor I have. The readings confirm the high/low voltage windings are connected together & everything is centre-tapped from the + output terminal.

 

For the 110V Tiger Tigers the total resistance of all the windings (measured across the 110V outlet) was approx 5.7ohms, measuring from each side of the 110V outlet to the + terminal gave readings of approx 2.7ohms for each half.

For the 230V Tiny Tor the total resistance of all the windings was approx 28.5ohms and the measurement for each half wasn't the same (14.7 & 15.2ohms), I don't have another to check the readings against as I had problems with the 230V output being low last time I tried it. I suspect it has a bad connection somewhere.

I opened the Tiny Tor to measure the low voltage windings as the diodes prevent measurement from the outside, readings for each half were approx 0.3ohms after deducting the test lead resistance.

 

All the measurements were taken using the lowest resistance range on a quality US made multimeter, which I check against a lab-grade decade resistor box periodically.

I used to have a cheap chinese multimeter which was totally useless for low resistance measurements, you got different readings every time using the lowest ranges as the switch contacts are very poor quality.

Better readings for the low voltage windings could be obtained using a low-ohmmeter as the measurements are at the bottom end of the lowest resistance range on the multimeter. I do have a nice vintage one but it's currently on the round-tuit pile as it doesn't work.

 

Here is a DaveCAD diagram for the internal wiring of the 110V Tiny Tiger;

 

5a08b67e469ce_TigerTinyModel300WiringDiagram.jpg.d83d622329bee3b082bd8ac9aaa70dec.jpg

 

On 11/10/2017 at 4:25 PM, Morrisoft said:

 

Quick update with things..

Yesterday I managed to finally clear virtually all the goop from within the petrol tank, the fuel nipple with inline filter unfortunately remains blocked at the moment. On it's third soak of petrol as we speak.

 

The stator rewiring is now complete  as per your guidance regarding high (thin)/ low (thick+thin) orientation etc. Many thanks David!

Pictures are below, it was an incredibly tight fit once putting the two back together. I only hope the soldering is up to the job.

 

How easily it will go back together, given the difficulty involved in getting it separated, remains to be seen.

 

There isn't much space for the wiring inside, I soldered the wires to the diodes on the Tiger I repaired as I didn't think there was enough room for connector blocks.

 

David

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On 12/11/2017 at 9:39 PM, factory said:

 

I've done some resistance measurements of the stator windings of two 110V Tiger Tigers & the 230V Tiny Tor I have. The readings confirm the high/low voltage windings are connected together & everything is centre-tapped from the + output terminal.

 

For the 110V Tiger Tigers the total resistance of all the windings (measured across the 110V outlet) was approx 5.7ohms, measuring from each side of the 110V outlet to the + terminal gave readings of approx 2.7ohms for each half.

For the 230V Tiny Tor the total resistance of all the windings was approx 28.5ohms and the measurement for each half wasn't the same (14.7 & 15.2ohms), I don't have another to check the readings against as I had problems with the 230V output being low last time I tried it. I suspect it has a bad connection somewhere.

I opened the Tiny Tor to measure the low voltage windings as the diodes prevent measurement from the outside, readings for each half were approx 0.3ohms after deducting the test lead resistance.

 

All the measurements were taken using the lowest resistance range on a quality US made multimeter, which I check against a lab-grade decade resistor box periodically.

I used to have a cheap chinese multimeter which was totally useless for low resistance measurements, you got different readings every time using the lowest ranges as the switch contacts are very poor quality.

Better readings for the low voltage windings could be obtained using a low-ohmmeter as the measurements are at the bottom end of the lowest resistance range on the multimeter. I do have a nice vintage one but it's currently on the round-tuit pile as it doesn't work.

 

Here is a DaveCAD diagram for the internal wiring of the 110V Tiny Tiger;

 

5a08b67e469ce_TigerTinyModel300WiringDiagram.jpg.d83d622329bee3b082bd8ac9aaa70dec.jpg

 

 

There isn't much space for the wiring inside, I soldered the wires to the diodes on the Tiger I repaired as I didn't think there was enough room for connector blocks.

 

David

 

Time for an update!

I had to bite the bullet and rewire the ignition coil. I was able to dig enough away as per your suggestion.

 

IMG_20171113_234253_695.jpg.74186eb527cdbe697657f005fa6f2292.jpg

 

I then soldered a new fresh length of wire to them both. The longer one was for the new stop switch wire.

 

IMG_20171113_234253_682.jpg.085f704d7fd4efd53b286f2667ada799.jpg

 

Also got some new fuel line too. 2mm inside diameter in red, this wasn't intentional but suits the engine nicely.

 

IMG_20171116_231035_026.jpg.3cdf45694c5a774816f1a86567507483.jpg

 

Rather snug on the tank nipples, no need for any clamps!

 

IMG_20171116_231035_047.jpg.ba26d5bb310eb43ed11e79182ba569df.jpg

 

IMG_20171116_231035_075.jpg.b380cb71ba5b503f9b3062d29c393b96.jpg

 

IMG_20171116_231035_038.jpg.e9d9d8bc83c0540e1d356c22e7c85b24.jpg

 

May need to shorten the carb fuel feed as it's a little wedged in there. We'll see.

 

Epoxied the HT lead base and stop switch and armature loop  for long term stability.

IMG_20171116_231035_081.jpg.909f32cfbb8e767fd71e60094cd7b9dc.jpg

 

Really didn't like the way it looked, almost like Vaseline! Managed to sort this out nicely with a 'paintbrush' style black permanent marker.

 

IMG_20171116_231035_084.jpg.4178a0b9dc90af77905c83348a22204b.jpg

 

Also ordered a new spark plug shoe/boot, couldn't get them in singular form, so if anyone needs one, I'll have 3 spare. Shall fit this once it arrives.

 

IMG_20171116_231035_097.jpg.43580c6e3911e25dc2075902220782b4.jpg

 

In two minds as to whether I should paint it fresh or keep the rustic original look.

 

I had a spare spring and washer and, it seems functional. We shall see.

 

IMG_20171113_234253_713.jpg.c593c05c6bf0e27a8ae53894975ecb76.jpg

 

Everything is now virtually finished. I'm just waiting on one last part for the carb now.

Few more bits arrived this morning too:

 

FB_IMG_1510917856162.jpg.dac9e008cd4a45cd56833defb9c97431.jpg

 

Any thoughts, or last minute things you can think of to check before it comes to running it again for the first time?

 

Cheers,

Edited by Morrisoft
Typos

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On 11/17/2017 at 11:55 AM, Morrisoft said:

 

Time for an update!

I had to bite the bullet and rewire the ignition coil. I was able to dig enough away as per your suggestion.

 

I then soldered a new fresh length of wire to them both. The longer one was for the new stop switch wire.

 

Also got some new fuel line too. 2mm inside diameter in red, this wasn't intentional but suits the engine nicely.

 

Rather snug on the tank nipples, no need for any clamps!

 

May need to shorten the carb fuel feed as it's a little wedged in there. We'll see.

 

Epoxied the HT lead base and stop switch and armature loop  for long term stability.

 

Really didn't like the way it looked, almost like Vaseline! Managed to sort this out nicely with a 'paintbrush' style black permanent marker.

 

Also ordered a new spark plug shoe/boot, couldn't get them in singular form, so if anyone needs one, I'll have 3 spare. Shall fit this once it arrives.

 

In two minds as to whether I should paint it fresh or keep the rustic original look.

 

I had a spare spring and washer and, it seems functional. We shall see.

 

Everything is now virtually finished. I'm just waiting on one last part for the carb now.

Few more bits arrived this morning too:

 

Any thoughts, or last minute things you can think of to check before it comes to running it again for the first time?

 

Cheers,

 

You've done a good job repairing the magneto coil wiring, I didn't bother hiding the epoxy resin at work, but would have used one of the old Humbrol model makers paints I have, it seems to be the only paint that hasn't gone bad with decades of storage.

 

I also found smaller internal diameter fuel line is better, especially as I've not found a source of the thin wall type originally used, it must be available somewhere as I did see some similar (but even smaller) tubing inside a pressure tester from the 90's at work.

The suggested fuel/oil mix is 32 to 1 with modern two stroke oils.

 

It's up to you if you decide to repaint the engine starter housing, but I prefer to keep the original paint & decals if possible with my engines.

 

What is the type of the NGK spark-plug you have used?

 

The only thing I've noticed from the pictures in the last post is that you are missing the carb idle screw, it's a #6 screw same as those used on the starter housing but with a thread length of 7/8", it also has a spring as shown in the picture below, it won't stop the engine from running without it though;

 

SAM_19451a.jpg.1154690aa67df3f41f7d378271702ca7.jpg

 

The lower holes are not used on the Tiny Tiger, they are used for the throttle cable on some tools & the Chicken Power bike engine. Your engine does have the letter B for the tank mount model (you asked about this before) it's next to the serial number in the picture below;

 

01.jpg.a9139efc43c4a3cc60ab5f99567a2ad9.jpg

 

David

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23 minutes ago, factory said:

 

You've done a good job repairing the magneto coil wiring, I didn't bother hiding the epoxy resin at work, but would have used one of the old Humbrol model makers paints I have, it seems to be the only paint that hasn't gone bad with decades of storage.

 

I also found smaller internal diameter fuel line is better, especially as I've not found a source of the thin wall type originally used, it must be available somewhere as I did see some similar (but even smaller) tubing inside a pressure tester from the 90's at work.

The suggested fuel/oil mix is 32 to 1 with modern two stroke oils.

 

It's up to you if you decide to repaint the engine starter housing, but I prefer to keep the original paint & decals if possible with my engines.

 

What is the type of the NGK spark-plug you have used?

 

The only thing I've noticed from the pictures in the last post is that you are missing the carb idle screw, it's a #6 screw same as those used on the starter housing but with a thread length of 7/8", it also has a spring as shown in the picture below, it won't stop the engine from running without it though;

 

SAM_19451a.jpg.1154690aa67df3f41f7d378271702ca7.jpg

 

The lower holes are not used on the Tiny Tiger, they are used for the throttle cable on some tools & the Chicken Power bike engine. Your engine does have the letter B for the tank mount model (you asked about this before) it's next to the serial number in the picture below;

 

01.jpg.a9139efc43c4a3cc60ab5f99567a2ad9.jpg

 

David

 

Hi David.

 

Good spot, hadn't noticed the idle screw. I most likely have a spare, certainly have a screw but not sure about another spring. Does the tension for the spring matter? Might have a few tougher ones..

 

I had thought all those holes were for various other applications so I'm glad you noticed that was missing.

 

The NGK spark plug is a replacement of the original that came with this particular engine, a CM-6.

 

They're cheaper than the champion plug alternatives and since it ran with one previously I figured why not. I also prefer the shorter profile of them to the champion plugs.

 

I've added a spark plug clamp and some more heatshrink today. Happy with the results.

 

IMG-20171118-WA0012.jpeg.40144b8bc7a77681de9d71679e4f03f1.jpeg

 

I ordered some gasket paper, since I've done everything else, I figured some proper gaskets in the carb etc, can't exactly hurt. Bonus, paid for A5 sheet, received an A4! 

 

In terms of the engine, yes I remember asking. It's a Type 151B, engine number 086792. Is there anything else that can be gleaned from this aside from what have been mentioned already? Manufacturing date perhaps?

 

Just awaiting my last shipment from webhead, (diaphragm disk and Mylar check valve) and a test run can be done! 

 

If I did decide on repainting the recoil housing, does anyone have the specific paint codes for O&R Red? I assume for the muffler/air filter housing, black, any high-heat exhaust paint will suffice?

 

Cheers,

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Ah! I think this works nicely.

Spring is a little tougher than I'd imagine it needs to be but at least we know it won't move on its own.

 

20171118_175523-2241x3984.jpg.1f99108871bff2962038af16f5aea2b2.jpg

 

Oh. Also. Quickly. Does anyone recognise where this is missing from?

 

20171118_180436-2241x3984.jpg.bf54fb376039282f1cb343eec2128bce.jpg

 

Can't quite place it from the exploded diagrams. I am assuming it's from the engine but can't fathom where exactly.. 

 

Cheers

Edited by Morrisoft
Typos, extra query..

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24 minutes ago, Webhead said:

Looks like the carb disc...

 

I had thought the carb disc was bigger? This is only 10mm approx across. Very little compared to the size I'd been assuming the disc is from other pictures/posts?

 

If so then this is good news - I'm surprised, didn't come from within the carburetor, I remember that much.

 

It appeared at some point during the rebuild for sure, all parts have been kept in small plastic tubs (a lid of which I used to photograph this piece), is it possible its come from somewhere else?

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2 hours ago, Morrisoft said:

 

Hi David.

 

Good spot, hadn't noticed the idle screw. I most likely have a spare, certainly have a screw but not sure about another spring. Does the tension for the spring matter? Might have a few tougher ones..

 

I had thought all those holes were for various other applications so I'm glad you noticed that was missing.

 

The NGK spark plug is a replacement of the original that came with this particular engine, a CM-6.

 

They're cheaper than the champion plug alternatives and since it ran with one previously I figured why not. I also prefer the shorter profile of them to the champion plugs.

 

I've added a spark plug clamp and some more heatshrink today. Happy with the results.

 

I ordered some gasket paper, since I've done everything else, I figured some proper gaskets in the carb etc, can't exactly hurt. Bonus, paid for A5 sheet, received an A4! 

 

In terms of the engine, yes I remember asking. It's a Type 151B, engine number 086792. Is there anything else that can be gleaned from this aside from what have been mentioned already? Manufacturing date perhaps?

 

Just awaiting my last shipment from webhead, (diaphragm disk and Mylar check valve) and a test run can be done! 

 

If I did decide on repainting the recoil housing, does anyone have the specific paint codes for O&R Red? I assume for the muffler/air filter housing, black, any high-heat exhaust paint will suffice?

 

Cheers,

 

The spring keeps the adjustment screw from moving due to vibration from the engine when running, your replacement looks very similar to the original.

 

I guess the NGK CM-6 should be OK as it was running with one before, it's about 2mm longer reach (the threaded part) than the Champion UY6 . I did buy a selection of alternates (AC 104, Lodge C10 & KLG TEN50, all NOS) from the Green Spark Plug Company, but they have mostly all sold out now. There is a error with one alternate listed on their website, the Wipac P4 is too long and is 14mm not 10mm.

 

Yes the engine serial number can help with dating, but we can only estimate dating of engines made before June 1967 when they changed the sequential numbering system to a coded number system that gave the year & month of manufacture. I would estimate your engine dates from around 1965. The engine on my Tiny Tor (which started my collection) has a serial number close to yours (086359), old picture below.

 

SAM_3078a.jpg.c4fce394ca0a10af233b9a4ee5ca447b.jpg

 

There is no information for the paint codes O&R used in any of the original literature I have, I guess they wouldn't help much as you would need to convert them to the equivalent European paint code. Some of the red starter housings on my engines have also faded to an orange/red. Pmackellow on here has repainted some of his O&R's, I think he uses standard rattle cans from Halfords.

The air filter & exhaust muffler were not actually painted, they were finished by bluing, look up "gun bluing" for information on how it was done. Kits are available for bluing steel but I've not tried any yet.

 

David

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8 minutes ago, factory said:

 

The spring keeps the adjustment screw from moving due to vibration from the engine when running, your replacement looks very similar to the original.

 

I guess the NGK CM-6 should be OK as it was running with one before, it's about 2mm longer reach (the threaded part) than the Champion UY6 . I did buy a selection of alternates (AC 104, Lodge C10 & KLG TEN50, all NOS) from the Green Spark Plug Company, but they have mostly all sold out now. There is a error with one alternate listed on their website, the Wipac P4 is too long and is 14mm not 10mm.

 

Yes the engine serial number can help with dating, but we can only estimate dating of engines made before June 1967 when they changed the sequential numbering system to a coded number system that gave the year & month of manufacture. I would estimate your engine dates from around 1965. The engine on my Tiny Tor (which started my collection) has a serial number close to yours (086359), old picture below.

 

SAM_3078a.jpg.c4fce394ca0a10af233b9a4ee5ca447b.jpg

 

There is no information for the paint codes O&R used in any of the original literature I have, I guess they wouldn't help much as you would need to convert them to the equivalent European paint code. Some of the red starter housings on my engines have also faded to an orange/red. Pmackellow on here has repainted some of his O&R's, I think he uses standard rattle cans from Halfords.

The air filter & exhaust muffler were not actually painted, they were finished by bluing, look up "gun bluing" for information on how it was done. Kits are available for bluing steel but I've not tried any yet.

 

David

 

Good evening David.

 

I think you're right, the spring looks very close to the one on yours. I have a further 7 of these if they're every needed by anyone.

 

Interesting - the very same supplier I used for the NGK. I think maybe I took their last CM6 then, as they didn't have any others on their eBay store. It's certainly 10mm which is good to have confirmed. Almost identical to the one it replaced other than a slightly different washer on the thread.

 

I had thought around 1965 as this was when the gentleman who owned it mentioned purchasing it, just wondered if there were exact dates but a confirmation of 1965 is suffice.

 

It's interesting to note that yours too has a different screw for one of the 4 tank mounts. Mine is simply a hex bolt of the same length, I assume due to lack of clearance around the engine for a screwdriver to reach it without completely dismantling all shrouds first.

 

Is bluing like oil blacking, or are they the same think by a different name? Tempted to give it a try if this is the case as I've done this before.

 

Cheers,

 

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1 hour ago, Webhead said:

Looks like the carb disc...

 

1 hour ago, Morrisoft said:

 

I had thought the carb disc was bigger? This is only 10mm approx across. Very little compared to the size I'd been assuming the disc is from other pictures/posts?

 

If so then this is good news - I'm surprised, didn't come from within the carburetor, I remember that much.

 

It appeared at some point during the rebuild for sure, all parts have been kept in small plastic tubs (a lid of which I used to photograph this piece), is it possible its come from somewhere else?

 

I'm not so sure it's from the carb, I think it maybe from the starter (part 131 on the diagram below), but it depends on the exact measurement & thickness, I can't tell from your picture if it is flat or not either.

 

5a10c119ea43a_OhlssonRiceCompactIIIndustrialEngines1a.jpg.7445bf2347ca735acaa61230d04bfcc6.jpg

 

Here are a couple of pictures of this part (listed as crankshaft thrust disk) which often falls out & is often missing too as a result, I did measure one earlier but have been distracted since & have forgotten, will check it again tomorrow.

 

SAM_9737a.jpg.f9ed2d3b6c5c59b0e29fb1563173d459.jpgSAM_9740a.jpg.b90b7aa0bb2801f63b39f02c151481b8.jpg

 

David

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14 minutes ago, factory said:

 

 

I'm not so sure it's from the carb, I think it maybe from the starter (part 131 on the diagram below), but it depends on the exact measurement & thickness, I can't tell from your picture if it is flat or not either.

 

5a10c119ea43a_OhlssonRiceCompactIIIndustrialEngines1a.jpg.7445bf2347ca735acaa61230d04bfcc6.jpg

 

Here are a couple of pictures of this part (listed as crankshaft thrust disk) which often falls out & is often missing too as a result, I did measure one earlier but have been distracted since & have forgotten, will check it again tomorrow.

 

SAM_9737a.jpg.f9ed2d3b6c5c59b0e29fb1563173d459.jpgSAM_9740a.jpg.b90b7aa0bb2801f63b39f02c151481b8.jpg

 

David

 

You're spot on! :thumbs:

That explains the strange wear markings on this too! (Flywheel bolt spinning against it!)

 

Top detective work there. Glad we sussed that one.

Can replace it now, although, I'm wondering if it's all that necessary? The recoil seems to function perfectly happily and with the spark removed the engine spins up no issues without any apparent issues inside the recoil housing while the flywheel is spinning.

 

I remember putting the recoil spring back in all too well when I fixed that way back still in the Philippines. Was such a pain to get seated properly. My hands still bear scars from it. :P

 

I will investigate how easily replaced it is.

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Don't panic, you don't need to take the spring out, it sits in the centre of the starter reel bearing, if it is that part of course.

 

SAM_10683a.jpg.b4e92f51d487aa576ff73c32c90d8ca6.jpg

 

7 minutes ago, Webhead said:

Nope, after I saw the other side. The disc is flat. Don't think it is 131, either.

 

Could it be a non original replacement for part 131?

 

The carb disc is a very thin piece of pressed aluminium or a loose flat disc on most engines, later ones can have a smaller diameter flat disc glued to the diaphragm.

 

Could we please have a picture of the other side of mystery part.

 

David

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30 minutes ago, factory said:

Don't panic, you don't need to take the spring out, it sits in the centre of the starter reel bearing, if it is that part of course.

 

SAM_10683a.jpg.b4e92f51d487aa576ff73c32c90d8ca6.jpg

 

 

Could it be a non original replacement for part 131?

 

The carb disc is a very thin piece of pressed aluminium or a loose flat disc on most engines, later ones can have a smaller diameter flat disc glued to the diaphragm.

 

Could we please have a picture of the other side of mystery part.

 

David

 

The wear marks on both sides correspond with it having sat between oil hole and flywheel bolt.

 

The other side has markings to match the recoil housing oil hole. 

IMG-20171119-WA0004.jpeg.632d5b8a81d23e68232127327b583dbd.jpeg

 

IMG-20171119-WA0002.jpeg.fcd372b78b5f7522eabc6eccc30d9eb5.jpeg

 

The wear is only superficial for the most part but the pictures give a good idea of what orientation it sat in.

Edited by Morrisoft

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