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Morrisoft

O&R 0.85hp (tiny tiger) - Carburetor parts? Coil refurb?

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Evenin' all.

 

While I await advice regarding the coil (I have an idea - more on that later), I've opened up the generator section to check the wiring - sure enough it's a bit of a mess and heavily corroded.

 

20171107_190756.jpg.d8d54a3e01ee207e61bfe8254ade8bba.jpg

 

I am tracing back the wiring to where it meets the motor windings, I assume I can safely replace these lengths with fresh wire - should I find some that's actually corrosion free of course.

 

IMG-20171107-WA0068.jpeg.441a9e7d3d7d1e448c82c8f4d342be93.jpeg

 

The big downside of this coming from the Philippines seems to be the humidity and the wiring! So much for. Any advice will be greatly received.

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There are two windings in the magneto coil, a low resistance primary winding with a low amount of turns of thick wire and a higher resistance secondary winding with many turns of very fine wire.

 

The two wires connected together are one end of each winding, these are grounded via the metal core of the coil, as they are not insulated they may still be connected together inside.

 

The thin insulated wire is other end of the primary winding and goes to the insulated bolt for the contact breaker compartment, the stop switch & capacitor wire are also connected here.

 

The high voltage end of the secondary goes to the spark-plug, the insulation of this wire looks damaged (heat-shrink sleeving can be used to repair this) and the plug cap is also missing.

 

I would check the resistance of both the primary & secondary windings if you have a multimeter and post the results here.

 

Not sure how easy it would be the open the casing around the two ground wires, you don't want to damage the insulated wire if you try or break the very fine secondary wire.

I used to open and repair small potted transformers (which were unavailable/obsolete) at work, the plastic casing could be broken off around the faulty area, gentle use of a small electric heat-gun to soften the potting compound, which could then be scrapped out in small bits to reveal the connections for re-soldering, araldite was used to replace the potting compound to complete the repair. I don't have most of the equipment to do this type of repair at home.

 

The number 151 stamped on to one of the crankcase flanges is the engine type, it represents the engine specification & options, I have a Tiny Tor (same as Tiny Tiger) that also has a type B151 engine. The letters were used on early engines, B is a tank mount engine.

There were letters or numbers used for many standard engine types with different options of tanks, various gearboxes, clutch and mounting types. Diagrams & parts lists for the standard types are usually in the master service manual, many manufacturers of tools & equipment with these engines would have ordered a custom specification engine.

 

David

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53 minutes ago, Morrisoft said:

Evenin' all.

 

While I await advice regarding the coil (I have an idea - more on that later), I've opened up the generator section to check the wiring - sure enough it's a bit of a mess and heavily corroded.

 

I am tracing back the wiring to where it meets the motor windings, I assume I can safely replace these lengths with fresh wire - should I find some that's actually corrosion free of course.

 

The big downside of this coming from the Philippines seems to be the humidity and the wiring! So much for. Any advice will be greatly received.

 

The generator stator windings do look more of a mess than usual, the rubber insulation of the wires always seems to disintegrate when disturbed, did the wires snap from corrosion too?

 

If you can identify the high & low voltage windings, it should be possible to connect up new wires, if you can find some good condition wiring to connect up to of course. Be careful to not damage the insulation on the stator windings.

 

You will probably need to clean the wire ends of corrosion for easier soldering, I recommend using a lead alloy based flux cored solder (not that modern unleaded solder rubbish, which requires more heat & has known reliability problems, it corrodes very easily too).

Tin the ends of the wires with solder before joining together and sleeve any joints with heat-shrink tubing to prevent shorts.

 

Here are some pictures from the restoration of my Tiny Tiger, it required the crumbling rubber wiring repairing, I took lots of pictures before disconnecting the wires and used different colour heat-shrink sleeving for identifying the low & high voltage windings.

 

SAM_7216a.jpg.20a3d60f18d7e26f784f6f8d5d652eb5.jpgSAM_7428a.jpg.f9a315216ab92e0ccde71e7beb81f0ce.jpgSAM_7431a.jpg.4028ae2f7c821d856a589ccf90e72342.jpgSAM_7432a.jpg.997e1589218b29626f7d1734f4cc42db.jpgSAM_7433a.jpg.eeb0a4e1ab43b0d93dfe7f85771276e4.jpgSAM_7435a.jpg.d2ab49bb9ca0e3e642cf3abf02e1e9c7.jpgSAM_7436a.jpg.7a4f0e10834a4a842e8b3bb576b1d7df.jpg

 

David

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12 hours ago, factory said:

 

The generator stator windings do look more of a mess than usual, the rubber insulation of the wires always seems to disintegrate when disturbed, did the wires snap from corrosion too?

 

If you can identify the high & low voltage windings, it should be possible to connect up new wires, if you can find some good condition wiring to connect up to of course. Be careful to not damage the insulation on the stator windings.

 

You will probably need to clean the wire ends of corrosion for easier soldering, I recommend using a lead alloy based flux cored solder (not that modern unleaded solder rubbish, which requires more heat & has known reliability problems, it corrodes very easily too).

Tin the ends of the wires with solder before joining together and sleeve any joints with heat-shrink tubing to prevent shorts.

 

Here are some pictures from the restoration of my Tiny Tiger, it required the crumbling rubber wiring repairing, I took lots of pictures before disconnecting the wires and used different colour heat-shrink sleeving for identifying the low & high voltage windings.

 

SAM_7216a.jpg.20a3d60f18d7e26f784f6f8d5d652eb5.jpgSAM_7428a.jpg.f9a315216ab92e0ccde71e7beb81f0ce.jpgSAM_7431a.jpg.4028ae2f7c821d856a589ccf90e72342.jpgSAM_7432a.jpg.997e1589218b29626f7d1734f4cc42db.jpgSAM_7433a.jpg.eeb0a4e1ab43b0d93dfe7f85771276e4.jpgSAM_7435a.jpg.d2ab49bb9ca0e3e642cf3abf02e1e9c7.jpgSAM_7436a.jpg.7a4f0e10834a4a842e8b3bb576b1d7df.jpg

 

David

 

David you're an absolute diamond my friend. Pretty sure you read my mind with the pictures as I was going to ask if you had more.

 

Fairly sure I can rewire from these pictures, I've stripped back all the crud and mess and gotten down to where the wires meet the windings as you'll see below.

1510145070666544397389.jpg.8a2d671d75713e3f8ea632bac55f73fc.jpg

 

Some spare speaker cabling came to the rescue with the rewiring, so far so good. Unfortunately I only have lead-free at the moment but plenty of solder flowed nicely onto the two outputs shown below.IMG-20171108-WA0005.jpeg.4ee69ab0211b0036e414c47f8f551749.jpeg

 

Interestingly enough those two original pieces of wiring survived without corrosion or even the insulation cracking, still fairly supple so I've reused these as the copper was nice and clean after cutting them free of the old crimps.

 

I'm going to use cable junction blocks to reattach the the two to the nipples inside the casing. Am I right in thinking the lower voltage windings clamp down to these?

 

On the core itself I have two sets of wiring - both bottom leads connect to a thicker and thin winding, whereas the two upper leads connect to singular thin winding - I'm just hoping to confirm before final rewiring/soldering occurs. See below.Screenshot_20171108-125407.png.b35de145967a5d599bc6fdf6a365be97.png

 

Cheers

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6 hours ago, Morrisoft said:

Some spare speaker cabling came to the rescue with the rewiring, so far so good. Unfortunately I only have lead-free at the moment but plenty of solder flowed nicely onto the two outputs shown below.

 

Interestingly enough those two original pieces of wiring survived without corrosion or even the insulation cracking, still fairly supple so I've reused these as the copper was nice and clean after cutting them free of the old crimps.

 

I'm going to use cable junction blocks to reattach the the two to the nipples inside the casing. Am I right in thinking the lower voltage windings clamp down to these?

 

On the core itself I have two sets of wiring - both bottom leads connect to a thicker and thin winding, whereas the two upper leads connect to singular thin winding - I'm just hoping to confirm before final rewiring/soldering occurs. See below.

 

Cheers

 

The wiring for the AC 110V outlet has plastic insulation (probably supplied with the bought in 110V outlet) which rarely goes bad in vintage electrical/electronics, rubber insulation on the other hand always seems to eventually turn to either dust or a gooey mess as you've found. We even had a modern rubber cable fail on a 2007ish Weller soldering iron at work, the inner cores crumbled to dust causing a short circuit & blew the fuse.

 

The two items in the casing with solid non-insulated wire leads are push fit diodes for rectifying the AC voltage to DC for the low voltage battery charging output. These will be connected to the thicker windings of the stator to provide the higher current required for charging. The ground lead is the wire on it's own on the other side of the stator.

 

The AC 110V outlet will be connected to the thinner windings of the stator, be careful not to snap these, you may want to re-secure the cables into the windings with lacing cord as they were before. Thinner cable from a scrap mains lead would have been fine for connecting up these, as the maximum current drawn will be much lower.

 

As for the the thin wires connected to the thicker winding, I've suspected they were as I got strange resistance readings when measuring mine. I will post a diagram of how I think it's all connected up when I've done some more measurements on mine as I didn't make any notes at the time.

 

David

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10 minutes ago, factory said:

 

The wiring for the AC 110V outlet has plastic insulation (probably supplied with the bought in 110V outlet) which rarely goes bad in vintage electrical/electronics, rubber insulation on the other hand always seems to eventually turn to either dust or a gooey mess as you've found. We even had a modern rubber cable fail on a 2007ish Weller soldering iron at work, the inner cores crumbled to dust causing a short circuit & blew the fuse.

 

The two items in the casing with solid non-insulated wire leads are push fit diodes for rectifying the AC voltage to DC for the low voltage battery charging output. These will be connected to the thicker windings of the stator to provide the higher current required for charging. The ground lead is the wire on it's own on the other side of the stator.

 

The AC 110V outlet will be connected to the thinner windings of the stator, be careful not to snap these, you may want to re-secure the cables into the windings with lacing cord as they were before. Thinner cable from a scrap mains lead would have been fine for connecting up these, as the maximum current drawn will be much lower.

 

As for the the thin wires connected to the thicker winding, I've suspected they were as I got strange resistance readings when measuring mine. I will post a diagram of how I think it's all connected up when I've done some more measurements on mine as I didn't make any notes at the time.

 

David

 

Ah brilliant. I'm glad you clarified this for me as that would have been interesting when firing it up for the first time.

 

Am i correct to assume it would simply have reversed the way outlets functioned if I'd wired it the other way around, making the 12v outlets 110v, and vice versa? 

 

Look forward to seeing the diagram, I can continue to replace/reinstate the wiring for now. I shall use different coloured electrical tape to enable me to identify the lower/higher voltage wiring as I only have black heatshrink and white cable of the appropriate gauge at the moment! 🙈

 

This is how things stand at the moment:

15101718677561923257258.jpg.66cce1fb61c7f37a3c4601e1cd8c5e8b.jpg

 

I will clean and tin the connections ready for soldering to new lengths of cable. In terms of clearance I imagine the space for cabling, once reassembled, is slightly tight so I'll try to keep these as short as I can work with.

 

Many thanks again David, you've been a tremendous help thus far!

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10 minutes ago, Morrisoft said:

Ah brilliant. I'm glad you clarified this for me as that would have been interesting when firing it up for the first time.

 

Am i correct to assume it would simply have reversed the way outlets functioned if I'd wired it the other way around, making the 12v outlets 110v, and vice versa?

 

Yes if wiring was reversed, the exposed battery charging terminals would have 110V across them, the diodes are probably only rated for low voltage (so could end up short circuited).

 

David

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On 08/11/2017 at 8:33 PM, factory said:

 

Yes if wiring was reversed, the exposed battery charging terminals would have 110V across them, the diodes are probably only rated for low voltage (so could end up short circuited).

 

David

 

Quick update with things..

Yesterday I managed to finally clear virtually all the goop from within the petrol tank, the fuel nipple with inline filter unfortunately remains blocked at the moment. On it's third soak of petrol as we speak.

 

The stator rewiring is now complete  as per your guidance regarding high (thin)/ low (thick+thin) orientation etc. Many thanks David!

Pictures are below, it was an incredibly tight fit once putting the two back together. I only hope the soldering is up to the job.

IMG_20171109_004650_358.jpg.4555a1b737592cc6c7abcc6d66d7eeb2.jpg

 

IMG_20171109_004650_373.jpg.eb768845bf9bd66d7aaf9d814ebd0d93.jpg

 

IMG_20171109_004650_395.jpg.aeebd26499db769476c67c35f03fd2cf.jpg

 

IMG_20171109_004650_393.jpg.31141a72f49d5eb812c368d93c2e2c08.jpg

 

IMG-20171109-WA0010.jpeg.8841302f5fff1f4827aa63e1e7a9af8c.jpeg

 

How easily it will go back together, given the difficulty involved in getting it separated, remains to be seen. 

 

More good news, this arrived with many thanks to webhead for his help.

IMG-20171110-WA0003.jpeg.03980a133a5457f5d84327e287c91096.jpeg

 

Just waiting on the diaphragm and needle-valve/spring and this should be good to give a test run with a temporary tank, unless it does finally unblock first! 

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On 11/8/2017 at 8:15 PM, Morrisoft said:

Look forward to seeing the diagram, I can continue to replace/reinstate the wiring for now. I shall use different coloured electrical tape to enable me to identify the lower/higher voltage wiring as I only have black heatshrink and white cable of the appropriate gauge at the moment! 🙈

 

I've done some resistance measurements of the stator windings of two 110V Tiger Tigers & the 230V Tiny Tor I have. The readings confirm the high/low voltage windings are connected together & everything is centre-tapped from the + output terminal.

 

For the 110V Tiger Tigers the total resistance of all the windings (measured across the 110V outlet) was approx 5.7ohms, measuring from each side of the 110V outlet to the + terminal gave readings of approx 2.7ohms for each half.

For the 230V Tiny Tor the total resistance of all the windings was approx 28.5ohms and the measurement for each half wasn't the same (14.7 & 15.2ohms), I don't have another to check the readings against as I had problems with the 230V output being low last time I tried it. I suspect it has a bad connection somewhere.

I opened the Tiny Tor to measure the low voltage windings as the diodes prevent measurement from the outside, readings for each half were approx 0.3ohms after deducting the test lead resistance.

 

All the measurements were taken using the lowest resistance range on a quality US made multimeter, which I check against a lab-grade decade resistor box periodically.

I used to have a cheap chinese multimeter which was totally useless for low resistance measurements, you got different readings every time using the lowest ranges as the switch contacts are very poor quality.

Better readings for the low voltage windings could be obtained using a low-ohmmeter as the measurements are at the bottom end of the lowest resistance range on the multimeter. I do have a nice vintage one but it's currently on the round-tuit pile as it doesn't work.

 

Here is a DaveCAD diagram for the internal wiring of the 110V Tiny Tiger;

 

5a08b67e469ce_TigerTinyModel300WiringDiagram.jpg.d83d622329bee3b082bd8ac9aaa70dec.jpg

 

On 11/10/2017 at 4:25 PM, Morrisoft said:

 

Quick update with things..

Yesterday I managed to finally clear virtually all the goop from within the petrol tank, the fuel nipple with inline filter unfortunately remains blocked at the moment. On it's third soak of petrol as we speak.

 

The stator rewiring is now complete  as per your guidance regarding high (thin)/ low (thick+thin) orientation etc. Many thanks David!

Pictures are below, it was an incredibly tight fit once putting the two back together. I only hope the soldering is up to the job.

 

How easily it will go back together, given the difficulty involved in getting it separated, remains to be seen.

 

There isn't much space for the wiring inside, I soldered the wires to the diodes on the Tiger I repaired as I didn't think there was enough room for connector blocks.

 

David

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On 12/11/2017 at 9:39 PM, factory said:

 

I've done some resistance measurements of the stator windings of two 110V Tiger Tigers & the 230V Tiny Tor I have. The readings confirm the high/low voltage windings are connected together & everything is centre-tapped from the + output terminal.

 

For the 110V Tiger Tigers the total resistance of all the windings (measured across the 110V outlet) was approx 5.7ohms, measuring from each side of the 110V outlet to the + terminal gave readings of approx 2.7ohms for each half.

For the 230V Tiny Tor the total resistance of all the windings was approx 28.5ohms and the measurement for each half wasn't the same (14.7 & 15.2ohms), I don't have another to check the readings against as I had problems with the 230V output being low last time I tried it. I suspect it has a bad connection somewhere.

I opened the Tiny Tor to measure the low voltage windings as the diodes prevent measurement from the outside, readings for each half were approx 0.3ohms after deducting the test lead resistance.

 

All the measurements were taken using the lowest resistance range on a quality US made multimeter, which I check against a lab-grade decade resistor box periodically.

I used to have a cheap chinese multimeter which was totally useless for low resistance measurements, you got different readings every time using the lowest ranges as the switch contacts are very poor quality.

Better readings for the low voltage windings could be obtained using a low-ohmmeter as the measurements are at the bottom end of the lowest resistance range on the multimeter. I do have a nice vintage one but it's currently on the round-tuit pile as it doesn't work.

 

Here is a DaveCAD diagram for the internal wiring of the 110V Tiny Tiger;

 

5a08b67e469ce_TigerTinyModel300WiringDiagram.jpg.d83d622329bee3b082bd8ac9aaa70dec.jpg

 

 

There isn't much space for the wiring inside, I soldered the wires to the diodes on the Tiger I repaired as I didn't think there was enough room for connector blocks.

 

David

 

Time for an update!

I had to bite the bullet and rewire the ignition coil. I was able to dig enough away as per your suggestion.

 

IMG_20171113_234253_695.jpg.74186eb527cdbe697657f005fa6f2292.jpg

 

I then soldered a new fresh length of wire to them both. The longer one was for the new stop switch wire.

 

IMG_20171113_234253_682.jpg.085f704d7fd4efd53b286f2667ada799.jpg

 

Also got some new fuel line too. 2mm inside diameter in red, this wasn't intentional but suits the engine nicely.

 

IMG_20171116_231035_026.jpg.3cdf45694c5a774816f1a86567507483.jpg

 

Rather snug on the tank nipples, no need for any clamps!

 

IMG_20171116_231035_047.jpg.ba26d5bb310eb43ed11e79182ba569df.jpg

 

IMG_20171116_231035_075.jpg.b380cb71ba5b503f9b3062d29c393b96.jpg

 

IMG_20171116_231035_038.jpg.e9d9d8bc83c0540e1d356c22e7c85b24.jpg

 

May need to shorten the carb fuel feed as it's a little wedged in there. We'll see.

 

Epoxied the HT lead base and stop switch and armature loop  for long term stability.

IMG_20171116_231035_081.jpg.909f32cfbb8e767fd71e60094cd7b9dc.jpg

 

Really didn't like the way it looked, almost like Vaseline! Managed to sort this out nicely with a 'paintbrush' style black permanent marker.

 

IMG_20171116_231035_084.jpg.4178a0b9dc90af77905c83348a22204b.jpg

 

Also ordered a new spark plug shoe/boot, couldn't get them in singular form, so if anyone needs one, I'll have 3 spare. Shall fit this once it arrives.

 

IMG_20171116_231035_097.jpg.43580c6e3911e25dc2075902220782b4.jpg

 

In two minds as to whether I should paint it fresh or keep the rustic original look.

 

I had a spare spring and washer and, it seems functional. We shall see.

 

IMG_20171113_234253_713.jpg.c593c05c6bf0e27a8ae53894975ecb76.jpg

 

Everything is now virtually finished. I'm just waiting on one last part for the carb now.

Few more bits arrived this morning too:

 

FB_IMG_1510917856162.jpg.dac9e008cd4a45cd56833defb9c97431.jpg

 

Any thoughts, or last minute things you can think of to check before it comes to running it again for the first time?

 

Cheers,

Edited by Morrisoft
Typos

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