Tiny Tiger 1 Hp 350 watt, voltage or frequency output governor speed setting?

[BeemerNut 0]

Is the unloaded generator output voltage to be set by the engine's governor rpm's or predetermined by the frequency in Hz under load allowing the fan operated governor to buck against the coil spring controlling the throttle butterfly?

With the governor lever set at the lightest spring pressure I read 109 to 110 volts no load. Manually overpowering the governor, aka full throttle it read 164 volts at no load running the engine too high of rpm's for my liking. Heck the lightly modified 41.5 cc Eton scooter engine turns 11,400 with 17 years use almost daily running Redline oil with original rings, modified muffler, it net 43 mph.  At a no load condition there is a slight rpm variation "hunting" which becomes stable rpm once under load of a 3.0 amp drill motor spinning free as well with locked rotor (held chuck) of the drill motor.

A slight 4 stroke stumble at no load just starting to become a clean running 2 cycle under load. Running Redline 2 stroke racing oil at 24:1, just a trace of smoke. Any replies would be great on the above question about setting the governor. Thanks as I have no owner's manual on this generator........~~=o&o>.........  

Edited May 19, 2019 by BeemerNut

[factory 487]

There is no feedback between the generator and engine, I seem to recall the generator output frequency is around double that of a mains wall outlet.

 

Be very careful not to damage your generator, I have one here that failed at max RPM when the governor vane fell out of the carb butterfly, the output voltage is now half what it should be. Also overloading these generators can also ruin them.

 

On all the Tiny Tigers the carb needle valve adjustment was set after the engine had warmed up, with a full load of approx 300 Watts of traditional incandescent lamps (250W to 350W).

 

Later engines also have the governor control lever (quadrant control) for adjusting the governor vane spring pressure for required engine speed. The later manual gives information to set this to the lowest setting appropriate for the intended duty/load, it gives governor lever positions of vertical for normal loads and fully towards the muffler for heavy loads. Also for battery charging the governor control lever is used to control the charge rate.

 

I intend to scan the Tiny Tiger manual & add it the the manuals 'sticky' thread when I have some free time.

 

David

[BeemerNut 0]

Dave, thanks for your reply it answered my question about the fan vane spring adjustment on the butterfly shaft. It was set at the highest spring tension from day one purchased by the original owner. He didn't know about the governor spring tension lever plus he only ran it a couple times amounting to a few minutes run time then added it to his collection of small model gas engines. I reset the governor lever to the lowest spring tension hence the 109 to 110 volts no load readings. I read on this forum the engine should be run at 6,300 rpm's. Time to locate the tiny tach with wire that wraps around the ignition wire for induction tach rpm readings. Had me thinking your 50 Hz 230 volts vs 60 Hz 120 or 230 volts in the USA. Did they make a 230 volt European version of the Tiny Tiger? On another note I was north of London 130 Km on "holiday"when the 1987 storm of the century struck the UK. Found that McDonald's hamburgers tasted the same in the UK and Japan as in the USA. I'll never sell my Norton 850's and Matchless 500 and 600 thumper, they have the proper shift lever location, right hand for which I was raised on riding bikes. USA in 1975 and later (RIP Norton post 75) had to conform to new USA law, all bikes 75 and newer must have left hand shift to not confuse new or young weak minded riders. Mickey Mouse linkage added to the Norton's sucked as well the kick assist electric starter added rubbish. It's a reflex thing with me with right hand shift. A mental relearning thing when riding the BMW bikes, R75, R90/6, R90s, R27 plus the 85 XL 350R Honda Enduro thumper being converted to 100% street duty. It takes several hundreds miles retraining the brain to reflex riding not thinking it out riding left hand shift. Solid rain here in the San Francisco bay area, feels like i'm in the UK again.

By the way, stupid me in the early 1970's sold a true 4 cycle 15 cc Gannett (made in England) engine with optional magneto.  http://modelenginenews.org/cardfile/gan_chinn.html. You run across any Gannett engines? I had the water cooled cylinder, wish it was the lower production air cooled version instead as I would of kept it. You run across any Gannett engines for sale? Carl.....~~=o&o>.........

[factory 487]

Yes there is a UK 230V version of the Tiny Tiger, I have one rebranded as the Tiny Tor, it has a different stator winding with thinner wire & more turns to give 230V, the output frequency range will be the same as the US version it has the same number of magnets on the rotor.

 

I don't have any bikes myself, do you have any problems with Ethanol gas/fuel and your vintage/classic bikes? I only ask as others on here have asked if it should be used with O&R's in the past, the last thread mentioning this is this one (post #6 onwards);

I have heard of the Gannet engine before, three have sold in the last 3 months in the UK (none of which were air-cooled), wow they are expensive compared to O&R's.

 

David

[BeemerNut 0]

Dave, on my Tiny Tiger 350 watt unit i'll have to do a test and connect the Fluke 87 meter to the generator as this meter has the ability to read in Hz or frequency. 

On 2 stroke oil's I run Redline's Synthetic Racing oil. Been impressed running it for years and all I run in my chainsaws, Stihl weed wacker.

 

The Eton powered sit down scooter (Cobra Scooter) with the big balloon tyres and 41.5 cc Eton engine it has been running over 17 years with the original cylinder, piston and rings. About every 3rd day riding between 3 1/2 to 9 mile loops from home, add a couple times each loop at full throttle for app 1/8 mile turning 9, 700 to 10,200 rpm's depending on the temps and humidity. Running extra oil plus It's geared 30% over factory gearing. It runs two 5 mm belt drives. Engine to jack shaft, jack shaft to rear wheel. I machined down "D" drive gear's OD, pressed on a larger gear which the ID is bored out, added a disc one side for belt tracking control. Other drive or driven gear has a opposite side lip for belt control.

On my bike collection riding to shows or gatherings the tanks are 50/50% Union 76 110 octane racing gas of 3.8 grams/gallon TE Lead. The other 50% is 10 to 15% alcohol blended pump gas garbage which also has an oxygen additive. We also have winter and summer blended gas, a lower vapor flash temp for winter driving. Away from home refills with unleaded pump gas with alcohol blend which I add four times the normal amount a lead substitute additive. Sodium based additive I recall. Once home with an empty tank, carb bowls drained then filled with a gallon of Union 76's racing gas which does not go stale even a year later in the tank before starting the engine again. All my bikes must run leaded gas, i'll protect the exhaust seats and valves vs a unleaded conversion on nine bikes. Rather expensive plus factory original bikes. The 85 XL350 Honda Enduro designed to run unleaded swill. 

 

On those Gannett engines the air cooled versions are rather rare a low production of them. The wet cylinder versions i'd bet are 96% of production.

No clue of the amount of magneto equipped engines produced. Saw a couple Gannett's at a model gas and steam powered model boat pond in San Francisco.  

Any price ranges and condition of these engines? The 40's to late 50's another 4 stroke engine made in England, recall Jensen (?) a 10 cc engine. I have this engine taken apart stored away which has several missing parts. Carb, push rods, ignition points plus other small parts. It was given to me in the early 60's as a 10 year old kid. I'm 66, mentally holding at age 12, I refuse to grow up......~~=o&o>....... 

[Don Paradowski 0]

On 5/18/2019 at 11:26 PM, BeemerNut said:

Is the unloaded generator output voltage to be set by the engine's governor rpm's or predetermined by the frequency in Hz under load allowing the fan operated governor to buck against the coil spring controlling the throttle butterfly?

With the governor lever set at the lightest spring pressure I read 109 to 110 volts no load. Manually overpowering the governor, aka full throttle it read 164 volts at no load running the engine too high of rpm's for my liking. Heck the lightly modified 41.5 cc Eton scooter engine turns 11,400 with 17 years use almost daily running Redline oil with original rings, modified muffler, it net 43 mph.  At a no load condition there is a slight rpm variation "hunting" which becomes stable rpm once under load of a 3.0 amp drill motor spinning free as well with locked rotor (held chuck) of the drill motor.

A slight 4 stroke stumble at no load just starting to become a clean running 2 cycle under load. Running Redline 2 stroke racing oil at 24:1, just a trace of smoke. Any replies would be great on the above question about setting the governor. Thanks as I have no owner's manual on this generator........~~=o&o>.........  

What I want to do is to externally regulate the 12-volt circuit.  I was thinking of using a modern solid external regulator or an old-fashioned type to control the power to a 12-volt battery directly.  Controlling the rpm's is of no concern to me.  I don’t care if the throttle setting is uncontrolled (other than the on-board governor).  Basically, if the generator is producing too much power as the battery takes a charge, I want to wean off the electricity going to the battery.  At that point, I am only wasting fuel but not cooking the battery.  I can be reached directly if you wish at donparadowski@yahoo.com.  Thanks.

[BeemerNut 0]

Don, I had to laugh as a couple hrs ago I moved my Tiny Tiger generator out of the way to another safe location looking behind it for motorcycle shocks I stashed away in storage.

Your case wanting 12 volt DC output for battery charging I would add a Zener diode with heat sink to the circuit to the battery. I recall wet cell batteries should be charged at 13.7 volts max, Battery Minder and other float charge at 13.4 volts. Going higher you had better keep an eye on the acid levels in the cells as they go down quicker over time.  

Zener diode voltage limiter system was used on Norton motorcycles as well other British bikes years ago, they all ran zener diodes. With the engine charging above idle like 2,400 rpm's and higher to redline the excess voltage above 13.7 or 14.3 volts the generator made was blocked by the zener and converted to heat by the zener hence the reason for the heat sink. Yes a crude voltage limiting system but it worked. Thinking any 12 volt Norton, BSA or Triumph zener not an early 6 volt system zener so heads up. One  way to go unless there is a modern replacement electronic regulator instead? 

Once assembled i'd check the generator's 12 volt output, possibly 120 volt output also while charging with generator under load then adjust the little manual governor lever for the proper voltage. I think I adjusted to 115 volts while running a small drill motor as a load and recall checking for 60 cycle numbers getting the engine set to the proper rpm's.

Should your 120 output only read 97 volts no matter the the governor lever position or manually forcing to full throttle revving the engine high your generstor is toast. Just be careful with the generator don't rev the snot out of the engine.   

This forum or by someone else, I was told to NOT MANUALLY FULL THROTTLE  the Tiny Tiger as you will read 150 to 170 plus volts output that can damage the generator windings then your screwed.  My governor lever was set at maximum rpm's detent position when I purchased it as the carb was plugged up and only ran on 1/2 choke, now it runs at the lowest setting and rpm's. It ran only a couple minutes from purchased new and put away for several years.

My generator has the big flat aluminum muffler as well the gas tank looking like a brick on edge of cast aluminum. The brass pickup tube sticking out of  the tank, has small holes for gas to enter, they were plugged up from years of storage with gas not drained. Unclogged the tube as well carefully disassembled the carb and cleaned out the gummy oil then assembled. No replacement gaskets required it fired right up, she's a cutie and a keeper. Also picked up a Chip-A-Saw, with the O&R 3/4 Hp engine, it needs a screw and washer for holding the pull start hub or rope pully assembled inside the cover. Came in a box with spring another fun puzzle to wind up and assemble later.....~~=o&o>......

Edited March 11, 2020 by BeemerNut

[factory 487]

14 hours ago, BeemerNut said:

This forum or by someone else, I was told to NOT MANUALLY FULL THROTTLE  the Tiny Tiger as you will read 150 to 170 plus volts output that can damage the generator windings then your screwed.

 

Good advice, I have a damaged generator here (mentioned in post #2) the governor malfunctioned causing the engine to rev to silly speeds, unfortunately in the process of trying to figure out why, the generator was damaged. The cause was an early all metal governor vane being bent out of shape, it rattled it's self out with vibration from the engine.

 

On 5/19/2019 at 4:26 AM, BeemerNut said:

Thanks as I have no owner's manual on this generator

 

I have since scanned & uploaded the later Tiny Tiger manual here (section 4, last one);

I still have an earlier Tiny Tiger manual to upload in the future.

 

14 hours ago, BeemerNut said:

Also picked up a Chip-A-Saw, with the O&R 3/4 Hp engine, it needs a screw and washer for holding the pull start hub or rope pully assembled inside the cover. Came in a box with spring another fun puzzle to wind up and assemble later.

 

Sounds like someone took the starter apart incorrectly by drilling out the rivet, you should never need to drill out the rivet as it only holds the starter reel bearing in place, the spring & starter cord can be serviced without removing the bearing.

 

David

[BeemerNut 0]

David, that Chip A Saw was a $15 garage sale item stuffed in a cardboard box, spring wired to the blade. I had to buy it being an engine nut. One starter pawl also missing. I was thinking any O&R pull start cover should fit as an replacement ? I was told it was held together by a shouldered bolt not riveted together. Heck I have  a O-45-1 Kiekhaefer 750 cc twin opposed WWII drone engine as well a Righter

O-15-3 250 cc WWII drone engine. Still hate myself for selling the NIB Gannett 15 cc 4 stroke engine with optional magneto on the back, 47 years later wanting a replacement. Have a 4 stroke 10 cc, recall a Jensen engine with a few parts missing, told it was English? 

I was in England during "the storm of the century", couldn't find any Matchless G80 parts, all exported. 

Have a TAS 1 1/2 Hp outboard, new still which is identical to the 1 1/2 Hp Cruise N Carry outboard plus two Cruise N Carry 2.7 Hp outboards. One 2.7 has the ignition system missing as it will run once complete again. The PO removed the ignition it thinking it was defective when the magneto kill wire on the engine tiller was pinched going to ground. 

Had a O&R 3/4 Hp gold dredge with 1 1/2" diameter pump given to me, ran 20 seconds from new by PO then quit. Factory forgot to install one washer holding the rod big end needle bearing in place. Two needles punched a hole in the botton of the crankcase. Drilled out clean holes then set two aluminum rivets in the holes. Needle and washer replacements it ran great then sold it back in the 70's when gold prospecting was a big thing. Had a 20 Hp Mercury outboard motor instead hooked up to a big pump for a gold dredge a vast upgrade vs the tiny O&R dredge in an inner tube. Cruise N Carry 2.7 Hp outboard motor parts i'm skunked for years as I'd like to complete that engine. Sorry for hijacking i'm guilty. 

Great postings about O&R engines, thanks. 

 

With bikes I have 10 total, dad's 38 Zundapp which was a roller less engine which dad fit a 46 Matchless 500 thumper with CP transmission into the frame with Triumph forks, Ardie rear plunger suspension back in 1951 while on vacation. His to work and everday bike up to 2002 (RIP age 80).

I have a 61 Matchless 600 thumper 1 of 125 made from 1959 to 61, all exports none in England. Three Nortons, 73 and 74 850's, 66 R27 BMW, 70 R75/5, 75 R90/6 and 76 R90s in Daytona Orange. The runaround project bike a 85 XL 350 thumper under 3K original miles. It will have a lot of 84 XR 350 engine parts installed then a street only bike. Clone of the Morton M5 five cylinder radial 4 stroke engine called a MAH (?) of 15 cc's I need to hear run like the drone engines. I belong with a group of 16 or 17 drone engine collectors all across the USA that own and run  them. Proud to be not normal.....~~=o&o>........ 

Edited March 12, 2020 by BeemerNut