Part interchangeability Comet pump

[BIGJOHNG2 1]

Well, I got my my Comet transfer pump running, but without the pump as I am awaiting delivery of  a new Impeller. I think that my O&R may be an older unit( '61or "62) and may be missing some parts on the carb and linkage to the vane governor . My question is can I put a newer carb on my motor and will it lash up to the induction case assembly ok on my motor. I now have no control of the speed (rpm) without input from the governor vane. I really had to scramble to shut it down when it started to over speed! I would gladly accept any advice!

Joh Graham

[Wallfish 698]

Yes, a newer type carb will bolt right on.

Maybe post some pics of your carb and how you have the governor set up. 

Carb should have a spring on the bottom of the butterfly shaft.

The governor vein flag should be tight on the shaft. That shaft of the governor vein goes directly into the top of the butterfly shaft on the top of the carb.

[factory 487]

The governor vane should look something like these (design & materials vary depending on engine age), the vane is permanently attached to the vane shaft.

 

 

The governor vane shaft fits into the carb butterfly valve as shown.

 

It's a loose fit and if the vane has been bent or damaged it can rattle out when running, this also results in over-speeding, my first O&R did exactly this.

 

David

[factory 487]

Please either post some pictures of the engine or tell us the serial number and I can add some pictures of the most appropriate governor vane for your engine, as you mentioned you wanted to make one in the other thread.

Also I'm not sure why you would want to change the carb if it's running.

 

David

[BIGJOHNG2 1]

I did find the vane and a small broken spring from the starter dog assembly. The vane was bent.and the shaft from the vane to the carb was missing. The reason I was asking about carb  inter-changeability is that  the slot on the end of the throttle shaft... one piece has broken away. I'm not sure sure the connection from the vane assembly to the carbs throttle would remain in place and I may need to swap out cabs. I could take pictures but I am afraid they would show little. I will show a picture of the vane. The s/n of the engine is 016395 Type 169. I'll try for some pics tomorrow.

 

John

[BIGJOHNG2 1]

[Wallfish 698]

I'll see what I have for parts for ya.

Carb body governor vein  Anything else?

[BIGJOHNG2 1]

I am looking for a flexible  vane impeller . The size is 2 inch diameter x 1/2 inch wide x 5/16 inch D hole. I have searched high and wide, but no luck. The 1/2 inch wide is the problem. The narrowest I can find is 7/8 inch. I am considering trimming the 7/8 inch to size. Any suggestions?

Back to the governor vane.... is the shaft just wire that has been ground flat on the end? Would you take a guess at the diameter?

Thanks for the help!!!

John

 

[Wallfish 698]

9 hours ago, BIGJOHNG2 said:

Any suggestions?

Trim it. Belt sander maybe?

I'll find a vein and get some pics with measurements if you want to try and make one

[BIGJOHNG2 1]

Thanks... I would like that. I would think that the vane should not be too hard to make,

John

[factory 487]

On 11/4/2021 at 4:53 AM, BIGJOHNG2 said:

I did find the vane and a small broken spring from the starter dog assembly. The vane was bent.and the shaft from the vane to the carb was missing. The reason I was asking about carb  inter-changeability is that  the slot on the end of the throttle shaft... one piece has broken away. I'm not sure sure the connection from the vane assembly to the carbs throttle would remain in place and I may need to swap out cabs. I could take pictures but I am afraid they would show little. I will show a picture of the vane. The s/n of the engine is 016395 Type 169. I'll try for some pics tomorrow.

 

John

 

Some pictures of the type of governor vane for earlier engines such as your type 169, pictures were taken a while ago, need to measure one for the length of the missing shaft.

 

For reference the above vane belongs to this very early engine with no serial number.

 

Also found in my archived pictures from ebay, another picture from a Comet manual.

 

I believe I have only one of these impeller pumps (used on many variants of O&R pumps) that has an intact impeller, if only we could find something else that uses it, we have tried many times without success so far.

 

And given the age of your engine, it's highly likely that the carb could still have one of these perished rubber check valves, its is recommended to replace with the later mylar type, which carried the same part number (replicas are available if you haven't got one).

 

Some pictures of a carb showing the butterfly valve part that is missing from your carb, note some engines do not have the primer button (both early & certain types of late production).

 

David

[factory 487]

Please can you double check the engine type, as my information gives a Carbra (French) Hedge Clipper as having engine type 169, it should be a type 109 (C) for the Comet pump.

 

David

[BIGJOHNG2 1]

David,

I just checked my engine type and it is a TYPE 109 s/n 016395.My mistake! The attached picture also shows a part of the carb not listed in the parts breakdown that I can find. Is this lever/stop available? I did replace the check valve with the mylar type. In regards to the picture of the governor vane would you "guestimate" the length of the shaft? It looks to be about 1/8" in diameter.

Again thanks you for the help

John

[factory 487]

I'll try & find that type of governor vane to measure and have a look at engine s/n 015990 I have.

 

The bottom half of the carb was only offered as a complete assembly, the lever isn't intended to be removable.

It's possible one could be obtained from a carb with a damaged casting and reattached with careful soldering/brazing (to avoid melting the casting), but there isn't much left to attach to in your pictures.

 

David

[factory 487]

Here are some sizes for the governor vane.

 

It might not be obvious from the picture, but is it notched to hold the flag section in place.

 

I will check the one from s/n 015990 on Wednesday afternoon, as I suspect the 31/32" might be approx 1".

You might want some pictures showing the shape of the butterfly valve "stop lever" piece, from the carb too.

 

David

[Wallfish 698]

Found an older style carb body.

Couldn't find an older style flag but I believe a new style would work anyway.

Let me know if you're interested

 

 

 

 

[factory 487]

John, in case you didn't know, that carb body is from one of the first 6000 engines and has no provision for the idle stop screw adjustment.

 

David

[factory 487]

I've checked a second governor vane today, from s/n 015990, the length of the vane shaft is the same at 3½".

 

The flat at the vane end is the same at 31/32", note the pressed notches that line up with & hold the vane flag in position, I guess these might not be necessary with modern glue.

 

The other flattened end differs slightly in length, the one I measured the other day was 3/8", this one is 1/32" shorter, this doesn't make any difference as neither go all the way into the carb butterfly valve.

 

A couple more pictures, one showing the vane in place and the second the sleeved pin it rests against.

 

 

And finally a couple of pictures to show the shape of the butterfly valve lever, that the governor vane fits into.

 

 

David

[Wallfish 698]

5 hours ago, factory said:

John, in case you didn't know, that carb body is from one of the first 6000 engines and has no provision for the idle stop screw adjustment.

 

David

It's an early one.

[BIGJOHNG2 1]

Great pictures and information. Pictures are indeed worth a 1000 words! Dave, what kind of camera are you using? Pictures are very sharp.Lighting is excellent .Wallfish...I would be interested in the carb casting but not the governor flag as I can make that. Should I pm you to work out the details?

In regards to trimming down an impeller for the pump... I tried grinding an impeller

with a belt sander , but it did not work well. A bit of research  suggested using a hot nichrome wire. Another person froze the rubber with LN2 and had good results. I don't have access to LN2 any more ,but I may try CO2 and acetone. Sure would be easier just to find a p/n that would work!

 

Got a new toy from epay today , But will start a new topic on that one.

 

Thanks again for all the help. You guys are really generous with your time!!!

 

John

 

 

 

[factory 487]

19 hours ago, BIGJOHNG2 said:

Pictures are indeed worth a 1000 words! Dave, what kind of camera are you using? Pictures are very sharp.Lighting is excellent .

 

My older pictures were from a old compact digital camera, I still use it occasionally, but mostly use my Sony phone these days, it takes quite good pictures when I manage to hold it steady . There is a window in the roof that gets good light during the day, but lighting can be very tricky in the evening, need to get round to adding some more lights above the workbench, I even have some I fluro units I salvaged from a relatives garage ready (I can't stand LED lighting, they only seem to be made in way too bright).

 

David

[Wallfish 698]

22 hours ago, BIGJOHNG2 said:

In regards to trimming down an impeller for the pump... I tried grinding an impeller

with a belt sander , but it did not work well. A bit of research  suggested using a hot nichrome wire. Another person froze the rubber with LN2 and had good results. I don't have access to LN2 any more ,but I may try CO2 and acetone. Sure would be easier just to find a p/n that would work!

What about searching small outboard water pump impellers?

[factory 487]

I'm going to need to recheck an old one, but have possibly found something that may work, a Johnson impeller part no. F3B-19, they aren't cheap enough to buy without double checking sizes, but websites state they are ½" (12.8mm)  wide, 1.78" (45.2mm) overall diameter and shaft size is 0.31" (8mm) with flat D shape.

 

Edit: Already seeing inaccuracies from those metric conversions provided by a UK website.

 

David

[factory 487]

Well I can't blame the sellers, as the manufacturer SPX (makes the Johnson pump brand) gives the same measurements.

https://www.spxflow.com/johnson-pump-marine/products/original-impeller-kits/

 

The two highlighted impellers are the same measurements as one I just removed from an Orline version of the pump, the difference is the number of lobes. The info on the SPX website suggest the impellers have a short life (as most products made from rubber do) and should be removed from the pump if not in use. There might be pattern parts the same, quality may vary though.

 

David

[factory 487]

I've ordered two of the 09-843S-9 impeller kits from an Italian marine supplier, seems no one in the UK does the 8 vane version, will report back if/when they arrive.

 

David