O&R 0.85hp (tiny tiger) - Carburetor parts? Coil refurb?

[Morrisoft 8]

Good evening folks.

Very impressed with all the work I've read about on keeping these beauties running.

 

First off.. here's the engine!

 

I am under the impression I can get a replacement diaphragm/gasket and intend to do so provided they're still available? That aside, the needle screw valve on my engine carburetor was sheared from overtightening by small fingers! Is there a suitable replacement for these? (I will attach a photo when possible)

 

I was surprised to find the original air filter foam intact and healthy albeit a little darkened. (See small bag below right of tank)

 

The previous owner had cherished this engine for many a hike in the mountains. The care shows, it's just unfortunate that small fingers damaged some things. I have repaired the starter which had been over-pulled and jammed.

 

Fairly confident compression is good, are replacement spark plugs easy to source? 

 

I also wondered if there is anyone with knowledge of coil/condenser repair? These parts of the engine have developed a fault and is choosing not to spark. Will check more closely tomorrow to be certain but I fear internal breakdown of the coil.

 

Is it possible to get new bolts/screws for these at all?

 

Did I mention the engine&generator have travelled to the UK with me, all the way from the Philippines?

 

Thanks in advance.

Cheers  

VID_78680702_145534_379.mp4

[factory 487]

3 hours ago, Morrisoft said:

I am under the impression I can get a replacement diaphragm/gasket and intend to do so provided they're still available? That aside, the needle screw valve on my engine carburetor was sheared from overtightening by small fingers! Is there a suitable replacement for these? (I will attach a photo when possible)

 

I was surprised to find the original air filter foam intact and healthy albeit a little darkened. (See small bag below right of tank)

The previous owner had cherished this engine for many a hike in the mountains. The care shows, it's just unfortunate that small fingers damaged some things. I have repaired the starter which had been over-pulled and jammed.

 

Fairly confident compression is good, are replacement spark plugs easy to source? 

 

I also wondered if there is anyone with knowledge of coil/condenser repair? These parts of the engine have developed a fault and is choosing not to spark. Will check more closely tomorrow to be certain but I fear internal breakdown of the coil.

 

Is it possible to get new bolts/screws for these at all?

 

Did I mention the engine&generator have travelled to the UK with me, all the way from the Philippines?

 

 

Replacement carb diaphragms are available from either Wallfish or Webhead on here.

 

I may be able to help with a replacement carb needle. I've just received an engine with a screw fitted instead of the needle assembly myself.

 

It's good that the air filter foam came out in one piece, if it doesn't crumble to bits it probably isn't the original, I always replace it anyway as foam usually deteriorates with age.

 

Your engine uses a 10mm short reach spark-plug, the original would have been a Champion UY6, these are still available.

 

They usually need the contact breaker points cleaning, I don't think I've had many problems with the coils (except with really early engines), the condenser can be replaced with a modern one if it is faulty and Webhead or Wallfish have got any spares. I keep looking for a modern condenser/capacitor that would fit inside the original can, but haven't found anything suitable yet.

 

The screws/bolts used on these engines are all UNC/UNF sizes, look after the originals as ones with the correct narrow head (fillister) are not usually found in the UK. I have found some ex-military ones but they are usually too short.

 

Interesting to hear your Tiny Tiger was originally from the Philippines, I can see the original distributors label in one of the pictures, is the generator a 110V or 240V version?

 

David

[Morrisoft 8]

On 20/10/2017 at 11:21 PM, factory said:

 

 

Replacement carb diaphragms are available from either Wallfish or Webhead on here.

 

I may be able to help with a replacement carb needle. I've just received an engine with a screw fitted instead of the needle assembly myself.

 

It's good that the air filter foam came out in one piece, if it doesn't crumble to bits it probably isn't the original, I always replace it anyway as foam usually deteriorates with age.

 

Your engine uses a 10mm short reach spark-plug, the original would have been a Champion UY6, these are still available.

 

They usually need the contact breaker points cleaning, I don't think I've had many problems with the coils (except with really early engines), the condenser can be replaced with a modern one if it is faulty and Webhead or Wallfish have got any spares. I keep looking for a modern condenser/capacitor that would fit inside the original can, but haven't found anything suitable yet.

 

The screws/bolts used on these engines are all UNC/UNF sizes, look after the originals as ones with the correct narrow head (fillister) are not usually found in the UK. I have found some ex-military ones but they are usually too short.

 

Interesting to hear your Tiny Tiger was originally from the Philippines, I can see the original distributors label in one of the pictures, is the generator a 110V or 240V version?

 

David

 

Morning David. Many thanks for the warm welcome and quick response.

 

In regard to the carburetor needle, I have included a picture below so you may see the damage that occured. Please let me know how much you require for the replacement, I am able to send the broken one back to you if you feel it's fixable?

Haven't seen this needle type on other engines, not sure if it matters?

 

Thank you for the information pertaining to the spark plug - I have ordered 2 fresh ones.

 

I shall check the contact points with a meter later today, they looked relatively clean on first inspection though so perhaps it'll give us a better idea of what's up.

 

In relation to the nuts/bolts I did have a feeling they wouldn't be easy to obtain - the flywheel cover for mine came with two screws missing and wondered how easily replaced they would/wouldn't be.

 

Lastly, regarding the Philippines, indeed the distributor there appeared to import them from the US, I forget where, but on this basis I would assume 110v rather than 240v, I shall confirm this once we have it running again either way. The owner was under the impression it was 120v and 12v @ 9amps , depending on which output you took from the generator. We shall see soon enough 👌🏼

 

Progress yesterday was slow, but did manage to polish and remove all traces of rust and the majority of surface pitting to the air filter housing and muffler, cleaned the base plate, handle and fuel tank of any corrosion/tarnishing too.

[factory 487]

Is the needle housing OK and have you still got the spring, washer & O-ring seal? (see diagram below).

 

 

The carb needle from your engine looks to have been modified/extended, the brass nut on the end of the copper section almost looks the same size as the housing the needle screws into. Both the brass needle & housing are quite thin in section and are very easy to break if overtightened.

 

If you still have no spark after checking the contacts, then check the resistance of the coil secondary & post the resistance measurement.

 

The screws for the starter housing are #6-32 UNC Fillister head, the standard length is 3/4" with a longer 7/8" one for the capacitor. The earliest engines had slotted screws and the rest used Phillips screws, one of the military surplus traders on ebay has some slotted screws (see links below), I've not found any Phillips ones available in the UK yet, I have asked Webhead for some more of these as I've run out of them, they are quite often missing.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-32-UNC-Screw-Slotted-Cheese-Head-Fully-Threaded-Length-3-4-F6-/152632238870?var=&hash=item2389972316:g:M7oAAOSwU9xUPkUT

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-x-6-32-UNC-Bolts-Slotted-Cheese-Head-Stainless-Steel-Length-7-8-W3-/162598124690?hash=item25db9a7c92:g:LrgAAOSwH6lXRDI3

 

There would have been a label on the steel band on the generator giving details of the output voltages, 110Vac at 300W + 12Vdc for charging being the most common version. I do have a UK version (branded as the Tiger Tor) with a 220/240Vac output, unfortunately it is faulty (low output).

 

The inside of the fuel tank may also need cleaning, dirt can accumulate inside as well as also clogging the internal filter.

 

David

[Morrisoft 8]

Hi David.

Thank you for your detailed response.

 

In regard to the needle valve, as shown in the picture I uploaded, is all I have unfortunately, there does however appear to be a seal of sorts upon to the top of the housing for the needle screw.

It's marked slightly and the original was damaged/broken due to over-tightening from small hands - hoping the housing is fine, I will try to get better pictures uploaded tomorrow for that.

 

Thank you for the links and info on bolts, I will be ordering some fairly soon I'm sure.

 

Any label upon the band itself is long since gone which is a shame but once it fires we shall know for sure either way. Sounds like a 110v (& 12v) @ 300w as you suggest.

 

As for the fuel tank, I'm going to give it a good clean as the (inside) bottom of the tank is gunked up quite badly. Will petrol be suffice to clean it up? 

 

Cheers.

[factory 487]

I thought the spring & washer would have been long gone, I will have a look at the weekend to see what I've got, I definitely have a spare needle. The housing sounds OK, they usually only get damaged from over-tightening, causing it to snap at the thinnest section.

 

Yes petrol is good for cleaning the fuel tank, that is exactly what I use.

I usually leave some fresh petrol in for a few days, if there is a lot of dirt in the bottom of the tank I also put some nuts in the tank with the fuel and shake it to dislodge the dirt. Pour out the contents and repeat if necessary.

You can also check the pipes are not blocked by part filling the tank and tilting it vertically (with something underneath to catch the fuel).

 

David

[Webhead 95]

I have needles and screws. As David said, do not re-use the foam, clean and re-gap the points, and the coils rarely, if ever, go bad.

[Morrisoft 8]

On 24/10/2017 at 9:45 PM, factory said:

I thought the spring & washer would have been long gone, I will have a look at the weekend to see what I've got, I definitely have a spare needle. The housing sounds OK, they usually only get damaged from over-tightening, causing it to snap at the thinnest section.

 

Yes petrol is good for cleaning the fuel tank, that is exactly what I use.

I usually leave some fresh petrol in for a few days, if there is a lot of dirt in the bottom of the tank I also put some nuts in the tank with the fuel and shake it to dislodge the dirt. Pour out the contents and repeat if necessary.

You can also check the pipes are not blocked by part filling the tank and tilting it vertically (with something underneath to catch the fuel).

 

David

 

Hi David, 

 

Hope your weekend has been nice thus far. I potentially have a replacement needle valve via webhead as per your suggestion, many thanks to both on that matter.

 

In regards to the fuel tank, I've managed to clear the majority of the gunk inside (still soaking on third round of petrol + nails/junk) and have cleared the two breather feeds on the tank with no problems.

 

The fuel feed (internal to the tank) that goes to the carb still seems to be blocked (no flow through of fuel, even when inverting the tank) - any ideas are welcomed, would prefer not to crack open the bottom unless I'm left with no other option.

 

Also, the gasket/paper seal for the fuel tank cap is long since gone/perished, can a new one be fashioned from thick card or similar?

 

Cheers

 

On 25/10/2017 at 4:04 AM, Webhead said:

I have needles and screws. As David said, do not re-use the foam, clean and re-gap the points, and the coils rarely, if ever, go bad.

 

Many thanks - have dropped you a PM.. 👍 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Morrisoft
Typos

[Webhead 95]

One of the tank nipples is for a jumper, breather hose to go to the other side of the tank to allow the tank to siphon fuel when it is filled past the arch. You can use a wire

to clean it. The other goes to the bottom of the tank and has a screen in it. If you push a wire too far, it will push out the screen or poke a hole in it .

I use lacquer thinner to clean the tank

and hook up a hose to blow and suck in to it. Eventually it comes clear.

[factory 487]

18 hours ago, Morrisoft said:

 

Hi David, 

 

Hope your weekend has been nice thus far. I potentially have a replacement needle valve via webhead as per your suggestion, many thanks to both on that matter.

 

In regards to the fuel tank, I've managed to clear the majority of the gunk inside (still soaking on third round of petrol + nails/junk) and have cleared the two breather feeds on the tank with no problems.

 

The fuel feed (internal to the tank) that goes to the carb still seems to be blocked (no flow through of fuel, even when inverting the tank) - any ideas are welcomed, would prefer not to crack open the bottom unless I'm left with no other option.

 

Also, the gasket/paper seal for the fuel tank cap is long since gone/perished, can a new one be fashioned from thick card or similar?

 

Cheers

 

 

Many thanks - have dropped you a PM.. 👍 

 

I've looked through my spares and only have the needle & spring, sounds like Webhead has all the parts as well as the correct screws & new carb diaphragms.

 

Sounds like the fuel & internal filter are quite clogged from old oil/fuel mix, I suspect the carb will be just as bad. It's usually a good idea to use fresh fuel mix and drain the fuel mix when these engines are not being used, as well as for long term storage. This didn't always happen, leading to clogged filters & gummed up carbs.

I have even had several engines shipped with decades old fuel mix still inside the tank, not a good idea either as shipping companies usually prohibit shipping of any item containing fuel.

 

It would be interesting to see a link to the "lacquar thinner" product Webhead mentioned, to see if we can find an equivalent product in the UK.

 

With the last tank I cleaned I figured out another way to clean the filter, using the fuel/oil measuring kit I have.

I originally had a 10ml plastic syringe for measuring small amounts of oil & a 400ml jar with 100ml measurements on the side. After the rubber part of the syringe eventually perished & got stuck with oil/fuel, I searched and found a set of glass syringes (2ml, 10ml & 50ml) intended for medical/laboratory use that wouldn't get damaged with fuel or oil, I also found out that the fuel line could be attached to them.

Using the largest one (50ml) & a short piece of fuel line I filled it, attached it to the tank pipe and used it to gently push fuel in to clear the internal filter without damage. Webhead's suggestion using a longer piece of fuel line sounds good too.

 

Webhead is right about the filter screen being easy to damage, it happened with the first one I cleaned many years ago. I ended up adding a very small in-line filter with that one. I believe people have opened the tanks (usually when they are leaky) but then you have to figure out how to open it without damage and then seal it back up again. Not something I've tried yet.

 

Small sheets of gasket paper/card are really available on ebay & other places, see the last post in the attached thread for more info;

 

David

[factory 487]

18 hours ago, Morrisoft said:

Also, the gasket/paper seal for the fuel tank cap is long since gone/perished, can a new one be fashioned from thick card or similar?

 

I suspect if you use ordinary card to make a seal for the tank lid, it will fall apart when it gets wet with fuel and end up in the bottom of the tank.

 

David

[factory 487]

Just a go a making some tank lid seals using a couple of offcuts of gasket paper. Nearest hole punch I have in my kit is 26mm and I used 1/16th punch for the vent hole, took a little searching to find a lid without a seal to test fit it with.

 

Anyone know the best thickness of gasket paper to use? I have gasket paper in the following sizes, 0.006" (0.15mm), 0.01" (0.25mm), 0.016" (0.4mm), 0.031" (0.8mm) and 0.063" (1.6mm) I don't really want to damage any originals to find out.

 

 

 

David

[Morrisoft 8]

Good afternoon chaps.

 

I have finally gotten round to dismantling the engine further - earlier removed the cylinder head and exhaust - very pleased to see such little wear to the internals and crank etc.

 

Being on a roll, I decided to dismantle the carb in anticipation for the arrival of the new diaphragm from webhead - I've discovered something a little strange. (And that perhaps I should have inspected the carb sooner!)

 

It appears that the diaphragm is actually in pretty good shape but.. There are a couple of bits missing! (See image below)

-Diaphragm ball valve

-Diaphragm arm

-Diaphragm arm spring 

-Diaphragm disk

 

 

There isn't a gasket either but I'm told this isn't required and can be reassembled without.

 

I assume the carburetor won't function correctly without the ball valve, arm, spring and disk - does anyone have these spare that I could purchase them from?

 

I'm hoping for no more surprises with this engine, nonetheless still enjoying the project.

 

Cheers

[barney 1]

I just sold one to packmellow. Looks new!

[Morrisoft 8]

9 minutes ago, barney said:

I just sold one to packmellow. Looks new!

 

Just replied to the other thread Heh!

 

I'm still in search of the above mentioned components for my carburetor. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers

[factory 487]

On 11/1/2017 at 3:36 PM, Morrisoft said:

Good afternoon chaps.

 

I have finally gotten round to dismantling the engine further - earlier removed the cylinder head and exhaust - very pleased to see such little wear to the internals and crank etc.

 

Being on a roll, I decided to dismantle the carb in anticipation for the arrival of the new diaphragm from webhead - I've discovered something a little strange. (And that perhaps I should have inspected the carb sooner!)

 

It appears that the diaphragm is actually in pretty good shape but.. There are a couple of bits missing! (See image below)

-Diaphragm ball valve

-Diaphragm arm

-Diaphragm arm spring 

-Diaphragm disk

 

 

There isn't a gasket either but I'm told this isn't required and can be reassembled without.

 

I assume the carburetor won't function correctly without the ball valve, arm, spring and disk - does anyone have these spare that I could purchase them from?

 

I'm hoping for no more surprises with this engine, nonetheless still enjoying the project.

 

Cheers

 

A have a few damaged carbs, I will have a look tomorrow to see if they still have the parts needed inside, any of the small parts inside can occasionally be missing if someone has been in there before.

 

Looks like the check ball for the valve will be the larger of the two types used, most are 3/32" diameter except for early ones which are 1/16". An O&R service bulletin recommended fitting a new one during repair, as they had problems with them sticking even after cleaning. Stainless & chrome steel balls for bearings are still available in imperial sizes.

 

I can't see the small roller that sits under the end of the diaphragm arm spring, the size is 0.062" diameter, I did make one for my first engine from a piece of rod salvaged from a broken cassette player.

 

Also I can't see the clear plastic check valve gasket, early carbs had one made from the same black rubber material as the diaphragm. See the picture below showing a laser cut replica, thanks to Wallfish for providing me with some of these.

 

You may want to change the exhaust gaskets, as they tend to leak when reused, not something you want when you've cleaned everything up, I found out the hard way with my first restorations.

 

David

[factory 487]

How hard to find are the diaphragm arm & spring to obtain? I seem to recall from a thread last year that Webhead had no stock of the spring. Most of my damaged/spares carbs are missing these or have the wrong type of arm, I expect to find more missing carb parts when restoring other engine & tools in my collection in the future.

 

I'm going to order some new check ball bearings on ebay as I've found I don't have any of the correct size for O&R carbs in my spares. I will have to make a roller, it should be possible to make the later style of disc (the smaller one that was stuck to the diaphragm).

 

Please can you confirm if the other parts I mentioned in the last post are missing from your carb.

 

 

David

[Webhead 95]

I found a bottom half of a carb pump that had all of the little parts in it and sent them, including the spring. He did not ask for the mylar check valve, though. He may

still be missing.

[Morrisoft 8]

14 minutes ago, Webhead said:

I found a bottom half of a carb pump that had all of the little parts in it and sent them, including the spring. He did not ask for the mylar check valve, though. He may

still be missing.

 

You may be right - what came off of/from the carburetor is in the picture I sent previously.

 

I take it the Mylar check valve is the plastic gasket-like film atop the diaphragm in the image above? If so there isn't one of those here.

[factory 487]

Yes the check valve is the transparent blue plastic sheet gasket shown on top of the diaphragm in the picture (they were fitted to my Tiny Tiger 400), the originals are usually clear (early ones are made from the same black rubber as the diaphragm), some have probably fallen out un-noticed when previous owners have tried to get them working. Sometimes they seem to be stuck to the thicker gasket (both items are part #6 on the diagram I posted.

 

David

[Morrisoft 8]

7 minutes ago, factory said:

Yes the check valve is the transparent blue plastic sheet gasket shown on top of the diaphragm in the picture (they were fitted to my Tiny Tiger 400), the originals are usually clear (early ones are made from the same black rubber as the diaphragm), some have probably fallen out un-noticed when previous owners have tried to get them working. Sometimes they seem to be stuck to the thicker gasket (both items are part #6 on the diagram I posted.

 

David

 

Does this material have any specific qualities other than being made of Mylar? 

 

If someone has a template of one to scale I could probably cut one by hand with scapels.

 

David, in regard to exhaust gaskets and their replacement, are these readily available or would they need to be machined to spec?

 

Cheers

[factory 487]

I don't know what sort of Mylar was used, but they are usually re-usable, I found a good used one yesterday, also Wallfish had some new ones made as I mentioned before.

 

Here are two pictures of the earlier rubber type check valve, I think it's obvious why I now consider this type a "replace on sight" part, sometimes the valve flap is missing or detached.

 

 

I've been cutting my own gaskets, but do have some originals, I also bought new O-ring seals for the cylinder in the nearest available metric size, took me two attempts to buy O-rings of the right thickness. See this thread for more on that;

I would be surprised if Webhead doesn't have new old stock exhaust gaskets too.

 

David

[Morrisoft 8]

2 minutes ago, factory said:

I don't know what sort of Mylar was used, but they are usually re-usable, I found a good used one yesterday, also Wallfish had some new ones made as I mentioned before.

 

Here are two pictures of the earlier rubber type check valve, I think it's obvious why I now consider this type a "replace on sight" part, sometimes the valve flap is missing or detached.

 

 

I've been cutting my own gaskets, but do have some originals, I also bought new O-ring seals for the cylinder in the nearest available metric size, took me two attempts to buy O-rings of the right thickness. See this thread for more on that;

 

David

 

Ah I see where it goes now. I wondered where it should be in relation to the other gaskets.

 

I have some Mylar so I'm tempted to simply recreate one as my old gasket would be a suitable template.

 

Thanks for link regarding the o-rings David, will look to get some more closer to the end of the build.

 

Just awaiting the spare bits from webhead at the moment, they'll be coming in two separate packages due to my haste in getting bits and not completely checking the carburetor prior to the diaphragm being shipped to me! 

 

Hoping they'll be here early this coming week - shouldn't take much longer than that I would think.

 

Cheers

[factory 487]

I've also got some parts on the way, it's taken about 4 days to get from the US to the ParcelFarce depot in Stoke which seems quick, it will probably them another two weeks to move the parcel the last few miles knowing my bad luck with them .

From experience it can take an extra week or two for international shipping between Black Friday and the new year.

 

David

[Morrisoft 8]

14 hours ago, factory said:

I've also got some parts on the way, it's taken about 4 days to get from the US to the ParcelFarce depot in Stoke which seems quick, it will probably them another two weeks to move the parcel the last few miles knowing my bad luck with them .

From experience it can take an extra week or two for international shipping between Black Friday and the new year.

 

David

 

Good to know. Thanks David. 

 

Decided on finally tackling the coil today, I fear I've discovered why there is no spark though! 🙈

 

There are 3 smaller wires that come from the coil along with the HT lead that would go to the spark plug.

 

Two are twisted together (appears to be intentional) and go from a small hole onto the bolt which holds the two parts of the coil frame together, these are not insulated and are visible above - one of the two had snapped off where it enters the coil.

 

The third is, I believe, for the engine stop and although also broken and lacking insulation in places, feeds to the rear of the spark-gap assembly with the condenser and engine cut off switch.

 

This one can be soldered onto a replacement wire and should be fine - the other two I'm not so sure about as the break is flush with the exterior of the coil itself and I can't see any easy way to get inside to reattach or replace the broken bits.

 

 

Hope the images are clear enough to see what I mean, any ideas on how best to approach this one, gents?

 

Also - my engine says 'type 151', I wonder if this means anything when compared with others that say 'model b' .. ?

 

Cheers

Edited November 6, 2017 by Morrisoft
Typos