Motostandard superior PTO problems and rotavator.

[jonnym 9]

Hello

My Allen Motostandard Superior, based on a gutbrod 1030, has a PTO issue.

The rotavator will only run at the wheel speed and not the engine speed.

The lever seems to have little to do with it! The lever moves with very little resistance, it some times stops spining and some times runs with the wheel speed (strong enough to ruin my lawn [emoji15]).

Im going to remover the rotavator tonight, if I can work out how, to check the PTO.

But any tips on how it should be used? What spinning speeds depth ect.

Thanks Jon

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[GAV694 23]

fife plooman would be the expert here.

 

when you are engaging the PTO are you using the clutch? and can you confirm that the lever is fully engaging, you should be able to see the rear PTO lever on the side of the PTO housing drop into the location grooves. 

Also are you moving it the correct way, one way is for land drive and the other is for engine drive, centre position is off.

 

To remove the rotovator you disconnect it from the lift arms then lift the little black lever on the tractor pto housing and simply pull the rotovator away from the tractor. If the shaft has been on a long time or without any grease it may not be so simple as the shaft is a very close fit.

 

Do you have the reduction type hubs fitted to the tractor?

[jonnym 9]

Thanks Gav.

Yes big problems removing the rotavator. The pins are seized and bolts are shearing. See photos below.

I don't know about the hubs, how could I tell?

Yes im using the clutch for the PTO and there going in to the grooves. I've tried all the positions only the land speed is working.

The bolts have sheared for the bracket that held on the rotovator cover. Only one was fitted in properly one was missing and the other was about half an inch proud. The two bolt sheared very easily, I barely leant on them. Ive ran my tap down the hole of the missing one and it feels OK now.

The PTO pins had the lifting arms on them but the retaining pins have snapped on both. The actual pins holding the PTO on are stuck fast. I've sprayed a load of wd40 on them tonight, given one of them a good smack with a persuader and had a stilson on it which didn't work.

My plan is to weld bolts and washers on to the sheared bolts and remove them like that. I might also do the same for the PTO pins as the heat should help release them and I can use the ratchet on them, that is unless there is somthing that could get damaged inside?

Any thoughts

Thanks for your help

Jon Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk

Edited May 20, 2014 by jonnym

[GAV694 23]

The pins with the black knob for holding the pto shafts lifts and turns about 180 degrees, i would try to free these off without heat if possible as I am not sure what damage could be done. I wonder if the PTO sleeve could be unbolted from the rear of the tractor without disturbing any seals or bearings so that you could get everything onto a bench to work on it

 

Hopefully something has just come apart inside the rear end of the tractor causing the PTO not to engage, I guess there will only be one way to find out

 

For the sheared screws i have had great success welding on a washer the a nut, as you say the heat helps break the bond.

 

If you post a pic of the hub on the rear wheel i will tell you if they are reduction hubs or not.

Edited May 20, 2014 by GAV694

[jonnym 9]

What do the reduction hubs do? I think I've been told it does have them. I have phone camera issues currently. The card is corrupt and deleting images as I take them so the images will have to be taken when my new card arrives.

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[meadowfield 1,900]

I'll second welding a bolt through a washer - the heat really helps loosen it off too

[The Fife Plooman 632]

If and when you get the rotovator off  and the pins both free  they should both be engaged or the rotovator will not work the engage lever should be in the forward position for to engage  the engine power drive.( keep in touch)

 

George S

PS if the pin nearest the rotovator is not engaging  the rotovator will turn with the forward motion of the tractor

jack up the tractor and lift the rear wheels of the ground put the rotovator in land drive  back position ,and turn the wheels  using engine or hand this will confirm drive is working

put the lever in forward position and use engine to confirm drive hope this helps

[GAV694 23]

Reduction hubs reduce your speed to a third of whatever gear you are in.

this allows the rotovator more time to do its job. I know fife plooman gets by without them but his 1032 does have 12 horses

 

If you can take plenty of pics of the rotovator as I am trying to fix mine up and its in a bad way so I may need your help.

See the condition of the gear box in it

 

 

[meadowfield 1,900]

Ouch! That needs some work....

[GAV694 23]

Ouch! That needs some work....

Tell me about it, I took a chance and bought it unseen knowing that it had stood for 10 years unused and now couldn't be turned by hand, but I did expect there to be at least a trace of oil left in it

[jonnym 9]

Ohh thats as dry as a witches sense of humour, about the same condition as my finger mower. Can you still get the oil seals for the rotavator shafts. Mines got a leak on it.

My new sd card should arrive on Thursday so I can take a few images then. Anything specific?

Where could I get an explosion diagram of the tractor and accessories? Or at at least diagrams like the one you attached Gav?

I shall be getting the welder out tomorrow if the weather holds.

I can't see another way of getting the pto pins out without using heat. The stilson is going to shread the top of the pin at least with welding I can grind it back down again. I'm amazed how robustly these things are made, I doubt in 50-60 years that many modern mini tractor s will still be around.

Jon

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Edited May 21, 2014 by jonnym

[GAV694 23]

The rotovator seals are standard metric ones with a double lip, I was going to order mine from simply bearings when I buy the bearings for it. Its the splined coupler that I am still trying to find a replacement for.

 

I can send you diagrams tonight, there all in German but the pictures and technical descriptions are easily understood.

 

Yes they were built solid, a proper tractor rather than a garden tractor

 

As for photos of the rotovator the external bracket that you have the sheared bolts in is partially missing with the bit I do have being welded direct to the shaft (again were you have the sheared bolts) so I need to sort all that out.

 

As for welding the retaining pins to free them up, I was just a bit concerned that there may be seals and a spring in there that may not survive the temperature

Edited May 21, 2014 by GAV694

[GAV694 23]

I cant see from the drawing how the shaft slides to engage the PTO.

 

Could it be that the PTO lever is slipping on the little shaft that its supposed to turn?

[jonnym 9]

Hello sorry for the long absence from this thread.

Ive been trying again to free the PTO pins with out any luck.

My theory is that the item number 22 on the diagram is brass and is sticky.

On the drawing I can't see anything but a straight pin so would it be a problem if it span through 360 degrees?

My plan is to make an extractor, using a tall section of steel box with a piece of threaded bar down it. On the end a nut retaining a piece of steel strip bent into a flat U with holes in to meet the hole in the PTO pin. On the top a large thick washer and a nut. This way I can use the threaded bar to pull the pin up a bit then hammer it down working it with penetrating oil. It should have the effect of rotating it as well.

I hope I explained that adequately. Does that sound like a good or terrible idea? What would the pit falls of winding all the way out be.

Also as both handles are not attached which way does it turn to be released and engaged?

As always thanks for all your help

Jon

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Edited July 21, 2014 by jonnym

[GAV694 23]

I think I follow what you mean and it should work. I haven't ever removed the pins but I think they will rotate 360 degrees.

 

It doesn't matter which way the pin is facing to release the pto shaft, it is the fact that it is lifted up that releases the pto shaft.

 

would splitting the flexi shaft by removing bolts number 9 give you access to the internals of at least one of the retaining pins

 

 

 

[jonnym 9]

I've not removed the rubber gater covering the universal joint yet to take a poke around. I've removed the clips holding it, but the gater has hardened and I'm loathed to split it trying to remove it completely, as I'm sure it will be a bugger to replace, one of the reasons I was doing it at this point was it was one of the hottest days of the year and I hoped the rubber would be slightly more plyable.

Looking at the diagram if I remove the number 9 bolts would I still need to either split the universal joint or remove the circlip and bearing (and is the bearing hydraulically pressed in) to split it?

I was hoping that rather than making days more work I could just tackle the PTO pin problem... Really I should know better.

Thanks again

Jon

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[jonnym 9]

Hello

Been a long while, but I'm still struggling to free the rotovator.

I've welded a nut on to the top of the PTO pin and still can't remove it!

Does anyone know where I could buy a relacement gator like the one in the above diagram? I fear I'm going to have to cut it off.

Thanks

Jon

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[GAV694 23]

Hello

Been a long while, but I'm still struggling to free the rotovator.

I've welded a nut on to the top of the PTO pin and still can't remove it!

Does anyone know where I could buy a relacement gator like the one in the above diagram? I fear I'm going to have to cut it off.

Thanks

Jon

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk

I haven't looked into a replacement gaitor for mine yet but I will have to soon as I need 2 of them. I was going to try looking at things like CV boots or steering rack boots.

I think i read somewhere that vinegar refreshes and softens old rubber boots, might be worth a try

[The Fife Plooman 632]

Hi Jonnym

Have you tried lifting the rear wheels of the ground and  engaging the pto with gears in nutrial what happens engine running. does pto rotate

try putting it in forward gear and pto engaged  engine running does it rotate

[jonnym 9]

I thought I had replied to you both, my tapatalk must have mucked up.

 

I've looked at CV boots etc online none seem the right size, I need to find a local supplier who will let me have a good root round his stock.  I will most likely end up making one from leather if mine splits and I can`t find one, fingers crossed I can save it.

 

@The Fife Plooman: I managed to get the rotavator working as it should after reading your post a while back, I gave the rear PTO pin a smack and it all started behaving Sorry I must have forgotten to thank you

 

My plan at the moment is to get the gator out the way sufficiently to split the UJ, not sure exactly how I'm going to achieve that yet as I usually use a vice, but I think its probably the easiest solution as the UJs are hopefully a standard off the shelf item.  That way I can get the tractor mobile and use it while also getting better access to the PTO pins.  

 

I think a slide hammer might be the answer to removing the PTO pins and it gives me another opportunity to buy another tool!

 

GAV hows your rotavator restoration coming along?

 

thanks for the help 

 

Jon

[The Fife Plooman 632]

Hi Jonnym

Something to try Get an electric drill with hammer action use a socket on it larger than the pin use plenty of release oil on pin use the hammer drill to vibrate the pin it my be enough to get it free worth a try has worked for me

George S

[The Fife Plooman 632]

Hi Jon

Something to try

Have you a drill with hammer drill,put a socket on it little larger than pin plenty of release oil on pin and hammer drill the pin the oil will vibrate down the pin  slow job but works

best of luck

George S

[GAV694 23]

I thought I had replied to you both, my tapatalk must have mucked up.

 

I've looked at CV boots etc online none seem the right size, I need to find a local supplier who will let me have a good root round his stock.  I will most likely end up making one from leather if mine splits and I can`t find one, fingers crossed I can save it.

I was also looking at boy racer silicon hoses for intercoolers etc as I think some of these can be quite large in diameter and may be suitable. I also wonder if you don't get actual UJ covers for propshafts etc, it may be worth speaking to a driveshaft company.

@The Fife Plooman: I managed to get the rotavator working as it should after reading your post a while back, I gave the rear PTO pin a smack and it all started behaving Sorry I must have forgotten to thank you

 

My plan at the moment is to get the gator out the way sufficiently to split the UJ, not sure exactly how I'm going to achieve that yet as I usually use a vice, but I think its probably the easiest solution as the UJs are hopefully a standard off the shelf item.  That way I can get the tractor mobile and use it while also getting better access to the PTO pins.  

 

I think a slide hammer might be the answer to removing the PTO pins and it gives me another opportunity to buy another tool!

 

Yes shock rather than a steady load is normally much better at freeing things up.

Another thing that may be worth trying is pumping grease into the drain hole in the bottom of the pto sleeve. I don't know if it is threaded or not but it wouldn't take long to run a tap into it. You could spray a lot of release spray in first then put a nipple in and pump it with grease. I am suggesting this as I think even once you have the retaining pins removed it may still be stuck solid and the internal grease pressure may just help a little in pushing the retaining pins up at the same time as freeing the pto sleeve

 

GAV hows your rotavator restoration coming along?

 

Ive been busy with other things of late so its still sitting in the back of the shed awaiting restoration. I did just last week buy another one which I hope to be in usable condition.

 

thanks for the help 

 

Jon

[GAV694 23]

_{Would these do?}

_{http://www.halltech.com/bellows/moulded-bellows/faltenbalg-vulkanisiert-moulded-bellows-6611.html}

 

_{Or these from the same people}

 

_{http://www.halltech.com/bellows/theku-bellows.html}

Edited January 16, 2015 by GAV694