Best fuels/ mix for tiny tiger?

[Jflair 4]

Hello forum 

today I hit every store and gas station in my area trying to find strait 30 non synthetic oil to no avail?  What fuels and oils do you guys use in your tiny tigers?  What ratios work best and which octane do I need?  Thanks for the help!

[Anglo Traction 1,016]

Hi, I'm no expert with these engines, but I checked the records for an O & R 1 Hp Chainsaw model from early 1960s and it lists ratio as 16-1.

Now I have had discussions with the Chainsaw Website owner in the past and he reckons that if you have an engine that has a Chromed bore, then that Petrol/Gas ratio can be increased safely to 25-1.

My 72 Beaird-Poulan Chainsaw has a Chromed Bore and I use that ratio, as well as classic 40wt Mineral Oil (to avoid any issues with synthetic additives affecting the old Oil Seals).

I also find that 25-1 is mentioned for these O & R engines on U-tube examples.

As for a suitable Oil available in your Country, I found this example is basic Mineral with no Additives-  OIL

API-SA  grade is devoid of Additives listed here-

    

 

I'm sure there will be a fellow expert Countryman along  at some stage to offer guidance, as I'm on the other side of the Pond. 

Hope this helps

[HeadExam 1,783]

Richard is right on track.

I can give you two of the most often followed thoughts. First all people agree modern 2 stroke oils are much better than the old 30 weight motor oils used in mixing in the past. Old school people will most often use a top quality synthetic or synthetic blend 2 stroke oil like a Stihl or Lucas oil at a mixture of 25:1 to 32:1 on equipment previously spec'd for 16:1. Newer old machines that were spec'd at 32:1 are often run at 40:1 to 50:1 with modern top quality synthetic oils. There is a danger of using both too much oil or not enough oil in case you were unaware. Too much oil can cause a carbon build up that could seize a piston or score a cylinder, probably not as bad as not enough oil, but it does happen.

 

If I were going to use the Tiger on a limited basis I would lean to a little bit more oil (25:1), and if I were going to use it more often I would use the 32:1 ratio. I use nothing but Amsoil Saber Professional  2 stroke oil and in my new Husqvarna 525LS that is spec'd for 50:1 Amsoil can be safely run at 100:1 ratio, but I will only go as high as 80:1, because I feel better with a little more oil. I will say Amsoil Saber is the finest two stroke oil in the world and because you can mix at a higher ratio it is more economical. On Amazon or eBay a quart will run about 20.00 delivered to your door, I doubt you will find it for sale locally, but hey you might.

 

The New School people are often using 50:1 Amsoil or Stihl 2 stroke oil in old machines that were spec'd for 16:1 and 32:1 that claim no ill effects or damage and they are using this equipment on a regular basis and even under fairly rugged conditions, but personally I'll stay with the first tack.

 

As for fuels, I would only use non ethanol fuel. If you cannot obtain non ethanol fuel I would use True Fuel premix at 32:1

[Wristpin 400]

I've always been an advocate of "old oils for old engines" - most of which in the UK are Villiers with plain bush main bearings and no oil seals. The extra "body" of straight 30 grade does appear to be beneficial in sealing the mains. Not sure where the OP was posting from but in the UK there is no problem in obtaining straight SAE 30 or 40. 30 is often sold as Lawnmower oil, locally Tesco, B&Q and Halfords have it. it's also sold as Classic Car Oil. Millers and Morris lubricants both sell a "classic bike mixing oil".

 

On a slightly different track, the manufacturers of Aspen alkylate fuel have been promoting it as having less carcinogenic properties together with resistance to the worst effects of ethanol and reduced shelf life. Then, a couple of weeks ago, the UK distributor of Cobra chainsaws issued a service bulletin that on no account was an alkylate fuel to be used in one Cobra model as it had been found to cause piston and bore failures.  

[Jflair 4]

This is great thank you guys for the input! This forum is the place for the O&R info!  BigUP

[HeadExam 1,783]

1 hour ago, Wristpin said:

I've always been an advocate of "old oils for old engines" - most of which in the UK are Villiers with plain bush main bearings and no oil seals. The extra "body" of straight 30 grade does appear to be beneficial in sealing the mains. Not sure where the OP was posting from but in the UK there is no problem in obtaining straight SAE 30 or 40. 30 is often sold as Lawnmower oil, locally Tesco, B&Q and Halfords have it. it's also sold as Classic Car Oil. Millers and Morris lubricants both sell a "classic bike mixing oil".

 

On a slightly different track, the manufacturers of Aspen alkylate fuel have been promoting it as having less carcinogenic properties together with resistance to the worst effects of ethanol and reduced shelf life. Then, a couple of weeks ago, the UK distributor of Cobra chainsaws issued a service bulletin that on no account was an alkylate fuel to be used in one Cobra model as it had been found to cause piston and bore failures.  

As far as I know straight 30w non detergent non synthetic oil is available all over the US

[factory 487]

On 30/06/2018 at 11:49 PM, Anglo Traction said:

Hi, I'm no expert with these engines, but I checked the records for an O & R 1 Hp Chainsaw model from early 1960s and it lists ratio as 16-1.

I'm not sure where you found that information but there were no 1HP O&R engines in the early 1960's (only 3/4HP) and the only mention of a 16:1 ratio is for the much later 1970's 1.6HP Model 20A engine, there seems to be a lot of incorrect information around for these engines.

 

Here are some old fuel/oil mix ratios from the various O&R manuals & literature I have, the ratio changed over the years;

1961 & 1962: 3/4 pint #30 SAE oil per gallon (11:1 ratio), these early compact engines where rated at 3/4HP.
1963: 1/3 pint #30 SAE heavy duty oil per gallon (24:1 ratio), again only 3/4HP compact engines available then.
1966: 1/3 pint #30 SAE heavy duty oil per gallon (24:1 ratio), for all 3/4HP, 0.85HP, 1HP compact engines.

 

From the NIAE test report (published 1964), "the petrol/oil mixture has been changed to 24 parts petrol to 1 part oil and the recommended grade of oil is heavy duty M.S. type SAE 30" (was 3/4 pint to 1 gallon when they did the testing in Jan-May 1963) many design changes were made following this report.

 

There was also a mention of chrome cylinder linings, here is the information I have for some of the O&R engines;

1963: Early compact engines had a steel sleeve cylinder with chrome piston rings (earlier information from 1960 doesn't mention the rings being chromed)

1975: Model 13B engine (1HP) has steel cylinder liner with special alloy cast iron rings, and to confuse things more the brochure (undated) for the newer Model 20A engine (1.6HP) gives a 16:1 fuel/oil ratio using either SAE 30AD or MS motor oil, these engines had a chromed cylinder bore.

 

Forum recommendation for fuel/oil mix ratio;

We have been recommending a 32:1 fuel/oil mix on the forum for using modern 2-stroke oils, I have been using a high quality mineral based 2-stroke oil from Stihl, another forum user had problems with the synthetic version of 2-stroke oil from Stihl, see this thread;

 

Obviously you may need to experiment to find something suitable that is available where you are, but I do not recommend oils sold by petrol stations for use with scooters (tried some of that in a Villiers engine many years ago, it was far to smoky), the best stores to try and find something suitable would be a local store that sells & repair garden or ground maintenance equipment, chainsaws etc.

 

Note the all the O&R compact engines & the newer Model 20A have seals made from rubber and also on earlier production engines they used plastic cages for the bearings, these can be damaged by certain additives in some types of fuel/oil.

 

Also if you intend to store the engine for any long period it's recommended to drain all fuel and to put some oil down the spark-plug hole, pull the starter a few times to coat the cylinder & piston and leaving the piston blocking the exhaust ports.

 

I must admit I don’t know if the fuel sold in the UK has ethanol in it, I guess that is something else to look out for which may or may not have harmful additives.

 

David

 

On 01/07/2018 at 5:46 PM, Jflair said:

This is great thank you guys for the input! This forum is the place for the O&R info!  BigUP

 

I forgot to add that you should check out the carb repair thread if you haven't already and it's a good idea to clean out any old crumbly filter foam from the air filter housing, it can damage the engine if any of it gets sucked in.

 

David

Edited July 2, 2018 by factory
edited 1961/62 ratio (see post #12 below)

[Wristpin 400]

20 hours ago, HeadExam said:

. There is a danger of using both too much oil or not enough oil in case you were unaware. Too much oil can cause a carbon build up that could seize a piston or score a cylinder, probably not as bad as not enough oil, but it does happen.

 

 Another potential pitfall resulting from  using too much oil.

This came to light when the UK switched to unleaded fuel. At the time we were agents for Victa two stroke domestic and commercial mowers which enjoyed the reputation for being virtually indestructible - particularly in commercial use. Then, for no apparent reason we started seeing engine seizures, nearly all for machines in domestic use. After a lot of quizzing of customers etc it came to light that "to compensate for the loss of lead" some customers were adding a considerable amount of extra oil. So now every intake of mixed fuel through the fixed jet carb contained a lower percentage of petrol / gas..Less gas = weaker mixture = hotter burning fuel charge  = engine in trouble!   

Confirmation of the diagnosis was backed up by some experiments carried out by Victa's UK service manager who demonstrated that although the recommended mixing ratio of the day was 25:1 , their engines would actually run quite happily on unleaded fuel at a 60:1 mix, but at 16:1 were showing signs of impending seizure.

 

 

[Anglo Traction 1,016]

3 hours ago, factory said:

 I'm not sure where you found that information but there were no 1HP O&R engines in the early 1960's (only 3/4HP) and the only mention of a 16:1 ratio is for the much later 1970's 1.6HP Model 20A engine, there seems to be a lot of incorrect information around for these engines.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There was also a mention of chrome cylinder linings, here is the information I have for some of the O&R engines;  David

Hello Dave,  

Early 60s should have read 1966, my mistake, so should have been 'Mid 60s'. Info from -HERE-  Which you are free to deem correct or incorrect.

 

I mentioned Chrome Bores as an example of allowable benefit for increasing the Fuel to Oil ratio in my Saw from the original Maker's recommendation. Which was explained to me by the owner of the Site in the link here (I was informed it was acceptable for me to use a Semi Synthetic Oil in my engine if I wish without harm). Any reference to O & R Engine's design similarities and subsequently legitimising Ratio changes was not intended.

The clarity you've provided on spec of various O&R Engines, I'm sure will be of benefit to owners/users.

5 hours ago, Wristpin said:

I've always been an advocate of "old oils for old engines" -

 

On a slightly different track, the manufacturers of Aspen alkylate fuel have been promoting it as having less carcinogenic properties together with resistance to the worst effects of ethanol and reduced shelf life. Then, a couple of weeks ago, the UK distributor of Cobra chainsaws issued a service bulletin that on no account was an alkylate fuel to be used in one Cobra model as it had been found to cause piston and bore failures.  

 

I'm in full agreement with you on the Old Oil for Old Engines.

Interesting point of the Alkylate issue. 

[HeadExam 1,783]

All technicalities aside, the newer 2 stroke oils are far superior to the old standard 30 weight oils used in the past. While I can't say that this statement holds true for O&R engines. I can say with much confidence that the old chainsaws from the mid 60's benefit from the use of better lubricating oils at a higher mix ratios because of a cleaner burn. Of course these engines were using reed ported intakes and open exhaust.

[Jflair 4]

Here is the little tiger I believe it’s a later mode type 219 350w shroud says compact 3 bought a few new diaphragms from a member on here carb thread was Awsome had to do all of it and went off without a hitch! String thing was a bit tricky but a few tries got it done;) once I get this oil thing figured I’ll start it and make a video!:) I ordered some synthetic and some 30wt I’ll try them both and see thanks again love the input!

Edited July 2, 2018 by Jflair

[factory 487]

22 hours ago, Anglo Traction said:

Hello Dave,  

Early 60s should have read 1966, my mistake, so should have been 'Mid 60s'. Info from -HERE-  Which you are free to deem correct or incorrect.

 

The clarity you've provided on spec of various O&R Engines, I'm sure will be of benefit to owners/users.

 

Hi Richard,

 

Thanks for that link, 1966 & 1HP makes more sense, the earliest O&R parts list I have mentioning the compact III (1HP) is dated November 1965, that doesn't imply that they didn't introduce it earlier that year of course.

The information in the link seems mostly fine, I will see if I can find any more reference to the 16:1 ratio in any of my original O&R literature, I just checked a few yesterday.

One thing I don't agree on in the link is the last comment " Used O & R model airplane engine " I think it should really say something like 'used O&R compact industrial engine' as the O&R Compact was developed as an industrial engine (although model makers did & still do use them for other things), here is something I found from an archive document relating to that;

 

 

I remembered recently buying a parts list dated Apr 1964, hopefully this scan from it helps better with the (early) original ratios, I will edit the calculated 10.67:1 ratio to 11:1 in yesterday's post. Of course modern oils allow higher ratio to be used, as has already been said;

 

 

David

[factory 487]

17 hours ago, Jflair said:

Here is the little tiger I believe it’s a later mode type 219 350w shroud says compact 3 bought a few new diaphragms from a member on here carb thread was Awsome had to do all of it and went off without a hitch! String thing was a bit tricky but a few tries got it done;) once I get this oil thing figured I’ll start it and make a video!:) I ordered some synthetic and some 30wt I’ll try them both and see thanks again love the input!

 

That is a very nice condition later Tiny Tiger with the larger gas/fuel tank.

I will check the manual for mine, but I wouldn't recommend using a 350W load continuously, something like a 250W maximum load for continuous use would be better to avoid damage (which is what the early ones were rated for).

Those starters can be tricky to repair till you get used to fixing them.

 

David