Hayter Osprey

[Potash123 26]

Hi. I have worked on a few B & S engines with no spark. I have never had to replace a coil, the blame always seems to be the HT Cap which are about £5. I know this is an old thread but I have only just joined as I have just bought an Osprey Type 61 like the one here.

 

Regards Colin

[Potash123 26]

What happened to this Osprey, just curious as I am renovating one at the moment, see my current thread ta' . Colin

[Anglo Traction 1,016]

What happened to this Osprey, just curious as I am renovating one at the moment, see my current thread ta' . Colin

 

It is still in a Field Building down in Sussex. I'm hoping to get it and several other machines out and up to my workshop this Spring when I can find some transport.

Land is being sold and has no main access yet. Got to make space first (and some money).

The Osprey will probably need a good going over again though.

[riber3 4]

I have just gotten hold of one of these with a 7HP B&S engine. I was told it was a runner but when I tried starting up found that it had no spark. Someone here mentioned that its normally a spark plug cap thats the culprit and not the the coil pack nut whats the best way to check both?? Can the plug lead be separated from the coil pack??

I have removed and tested the plug and that is ok and I even have a spare new one. I have removed the top cover and so far the only numbers I can find are these AT3600and M275CC The carb as you can see in the photos is pretty manky!! and of course No manuals so any help or advice would be most welcome

[Anglo Traction 1,016]

Hello Riber3, welcome to the Forum. Firstly, you can test the Armature/Coil using the advice on the B&S site-  -LINK- .

As far as I'm aware, the HT Lead is fixed to the Coil and sold as a complete unit. Part number for the Armature on your engine is 298968 and are about UK£33.00. for a genuine replacement.

Other things to check are the 'Kill' or 'Ignition Ground/Earth Wire' and setting. The linkage may not be isolating this when the Throttle Lever is moved to start position.

 

 Some people have converted to a Transitorised Electronic Ignition system to replace the old system, where I'm sure someone on here would assist you with what is needed.

If you prefer to stay with the original system, then it is also possible the Condenser may be faulty.

 

As for Manuals etc for your engine model, if you click on this link, it will take you directly to B&S site's manuals for it. - B&S 170700 .

Hope this helps.

Regards

 

[Wristpin 400]

By the look of the image your machine has points ignition, no trigger module between the left leg of the coil armature and the coil itself.

Plug caps. Comments have been made about these being the likely cause of failure. This is only likely to be the case if the original BS connector has been removed and replaced with an aftermarket cap. Again, from your image you appear to have the original connector and there's not a lot that can go wrong with those. Sometimes they have a simple rubber boot. 

The only exterior things left to check is the kill switch on the throttle plate or the kill wire that goes to it. If all is OK there, you have a choice, either remove  the flywheel and examine the points etc , or find a later BS Magnetron coil ( with suitable leg spacing)  and fit that in place of yours - a ten minute job and a direct replacement using your existing flywheel without the need to remove it.

Personally I would do the latter as they are 99.9% reliable and obviate  the need to ever remove the flywheel again.

 

[riber3 4]

6 hours ago, Anglo Traction said:

Hello Riber3, welcome to the Forum. Firstly, you can test the Armature/Coil using the advice on the B&S site-  -LINK- .

As far as I'm aware, the HT Lead is fixed to the Coil and sold as a complete unit. Part number for the Armature on your engine is 298968 and are about UK£33.00. for a genuine replacement.

Other things to check are the 'Kill' or 'Ignition Ground/Earth Wire' and setting. The linkage may not be isolating this when the Throttle Lever is moved to start position.

 

 Some people have converted to a Transitorised Electronic Ignition system to replace the old system, where I'm sure someone on here would assist you with what is needed.

If you prefer to stay with the original system, then it is also possible the Condenser may be faulty.

 

As for Manuals etc for your engine model, if you click on this link, it will take you directly to B&S site's manuals for it. - B&S 170700 .

Hope this helps.

Regards

 

Thank you so much for the great advice and help I will certainly be putting it to good use later this week

[riber3 4]

5 hours ago, Wristpin said:

By the look of the image your machine has points ignition, no trigger module between the left leg of the coil armature and the coil itself.

Plug caps. Comments have been made about these being the likely cause of failure. This is only likely to be the case if the original BS connector has been removed and replaced with an aftermarket cap. Again, from your image you appear to have the original connector and there's not a lot that can go wrong with those. Sometimes they have a simple rubber boot. 

The only exterior things left to check is the kill switch on the throttle plate or the kill wire that goes to it. If all is OK there, you have a choice, either remove  the flywheel and examine the points etc , or find a later BS Magnetron coil ( with suitable leg spacing)  and fit that in place of yours - a ten minute job and a direct replacement using your existing flywheel without the need to remove it.

Personally I would do the latter as they are 99.9% reliable and obviate  the need to ever remove the flywheel again.

 

Thank you for the information and yes it has an original rubber plug cap I will check the kill switch and the kill wire once I have cleaned it up a bit,  but I like the idea of the coil update as it seems to save of hassle in the future. I will update the post once I have had a go at it

[riber3 4]

Just a quick update as I managed a quick look at the Hayter yesterday and I couldn't see a kill switch let alone points LOL!! On the handlebar there is only the clutch cable release handle and the govenor speed controller. Which shows choke slow and fast speed setting. I will take another look later today and clean up around the carb and maybe I will see a bit more

[riber3 4]

I have now removed the air filter assembly and gave the carburettor a bit of a clean up. I think I found the kill wire? (see photos) and it sits under the coil. Presumably I need to remove the coil to access further but I cannot see any breaks in the wire. But I like the idea of the BS Magnetron coil rather than having to remove the flywheel.  I am going to check the BS page for testing. as mot sure how this kill switch works. I thought the engine once running was shut down via the fuel valve?

[Wristpin 400]

The thin wire from the coil low tension windings goes under the flywheel to connect to the contact breaker points and condenser. (Under a tin cover) . Another thin wire comes from the points to the kill switch which is positioned adjacent to were the throttle cable is anchored. The action of closing the throttle past the idle causes  that switch to connect the coil and points to earth , thereby killing the ignition. 

[riber3 4]

Actually found some time today to try and locate a replacement coil a magnitron variant and after contacting B&S this is what they suugeested

 

The original coil is http://www.briggsandstrattonparts.co.uk/briggs-and-stratton-armature-magneto-298968

 

and the Magnitron Version they recommend is this http://www.briggsandstrattonparts.co.uk/briggs-and-stratton-armature-magneto-398811

 

Before I order it Has anyone fitted one of these? and are they difficult to set up?

 

The engine details are Model 170702, Type 5638-01, Code 80082211

Many thanks

[Wristpin 400]

It's a straight forward job. The Briggs Magnetron  kit illustrated includes a new flywheel key and a blanking plug for the points breaker plunger hole. Obviously, to fit those the flywheel has to be removed .  I have to own up to fitting many Magnetron coils without removing the flywheel and leaving the original key and points assembly in place with no apparent ill effects over a number of years.

The choice is yours.

[riber3 4]

Many thanks for the advice I will follow your lead and do the same.Did you have to set up the feeler gauge gap up to the same point? or just do it by eye?

[Wristpin 400]

The new coil armature requires setting up as follows. Turn the flywheel so that the magnets are furthest away from the coil . Pull the coil as far from the flywheel as the slots allow and pinch up one coil fixing screw. Rotate the flywheel so that the magnets are equally aligned with the coil armature legs. Place your gauge ( plastic or card ) between the armature legs and the flywheel. Release the screw that you tightened and the magnets will pull the coil onto the flywheel pinching the gauge . Tighten both screws and turn the flywheel to assist pulling the gauge out.

In the absence of the correct gauge, Briggs used to suggest two thicknesses of an outdated micro fiche. 

[riber3 4]

Thanks again for your guidance I have now ordered the part which should be here next week. Once I have got it I will follow your advice and fit it and hopefully get it running. I will post some photos and report on how I get on later.

[Nigel444 4]

Hi all , i am very new to this site !!

I have bought a very old Hayter Osprey but in very good order and looks like its had little use, the machine has the JLO two stroke engine fitted, sadly there was no spark ! after checking all the usual basic things i removed the pulley to check the points and coil, all items looked new and in very good order, but i need clear help in correctly setting up the points if any one would kindly help !! also on the flywheel theres two key ways, which one should it be on, the engine turns clockwise and i have tried it using the second one, and tried all-sorts of settings but still no spark ! i have also replaced the condenser and coil with new items, checked the HT wire etc etc

 

Thanks in advance

 

Nigel 

 

[Wristpin 400]

A bit of a rare beast the 2-stroke Osprey. I've got a parts book  but have never worked on one so this is just a suggestion.

Set the points to .35-.45mm using whichever keyway gives the best access through the flywheel to their widest setting  - clean feeler gauge and pull a bit of clean card through them to remove any trace of grease or dirt. Top tip - pull the card through but not out , then use a instrument to hold the point off the card to release it. That way you don't end up with paper fibres trapped between the points , defeating your endeavours! 

Having set the points then use whichever keyway causes them to start to open when the piston is 2.3 - 2.6 mm before top dead centre - (here I'm assuming that at no time you have removed or moved the stator assembly and lost the factory setting or that if you have you marked the stator position and returned it to there on reassembly).  To do this you will need to devise some way of determining and measuring piston movement via the spark plug hole. I've made a gauge using the body of an old spark plug  with a sliding plunger in it that  I've used on numerous two stroke engines with the plug hole immediately above the piston. In fact I made two, one using a 14mm plug and the other an 18mm one - useful for some Villiers . Once you get the hang of it the whole process is far less daunting than it sounds.

Interestingly none of my JLO literature makes any mention of the two keyways - seems a bit odd.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/75lq2yhxl18oxrf/JLO 197.051 Hayter Osprey0001.pdf?dl=0

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Wristpin
Typo!

[Nigel444 4]

Hi, thank you very much for your kind and informative reply, i will have another go if i can find time this Sunday, i will also take some pics and upload , along with letting you know my progress good or bad............

[Wristpin 400]

4 hours ago, Nigel444 said:

Hi, thank you very much for your kind and informative reply, i will have another go if i can find time this Sunday, i will also take some pics and upload , along with letting you know my progress good or bad............

 

That would be good, it would be interesting  to see a pic of the two flywheel keyways; it seems so strange that as their presence is bound to raise a question,  there is no mention of them in any of the JLO literature.    

[Nigel444 4]

Yes i have never seen a double keyway, my friend said he has come across two before and said to use the second one as per rotation direction, but could not explain to me why !! Ok great hopefully i will have chance to up-load some pics on Sunday.

 

Thank you

[Nigel444 4]

Hi, please find attached some pics of the rare Two Stroke machine ! hope you can clearly see the two keyway cut outs

[Wristpin 400]

Interesting, certainly, with the keyways appearing to be just over 90 degrees apart , there should  be no doubt about which one to use.

Bet it really sings when put into work.

Seeing that the ignition cam is on the crank and not on the flywheel boss makes some of my instructions for setting the points irrelevant  - and makes the job far easier than on the smaller JLOs that I have worked on.

Not only is it a fairly unusual machine but it also looks not to have been over worked or badly treated. 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2017 by Wristpin

[Nigel444 4]

I agree. really excited about seeing and hearing running, Yes it looks to have had very little use at all and been very well cared for over the years, but i need the standard specs to make sure its all set up as it should be as a start point, buts thats proving difficult at the moment, just hoping the information may surface soon, if not i will have to sadly look at moving it on.

 

I know a few guys at Spell brook Hayter, but have not had contact for many years now, but it maybe worth an e-mail to ask if they have an archive i could delve into etc.

 

Cheers

 

Nigel 

 

  

[riber3 4]

On 06/06/2017 at 11:26 PM, Wristpin said:

It's a straight forward job. The Briggs Magnetron  kit illustrated includes a new flywheel key and a blanking plug for the points breaker plunger hole. Obviously, to fit those the flywheel has to be removed .  I have to own up to fitting many Magnetron coils without removing the flywheel and leaving the original key and points assembly in place with no apparent ill effects over a number of years.

The choice is yours.

Finally got my part today as I was told it was out of stock for a while!! Anyway here is a photo of the part and I have removed the old one except for the wire going under the flywheel as I am not sure if I cut this completely off or do I  have to attach it the new wire I have been supplied?  I presume I just cut it off but I thought I had better check first,

Just a quick note to Nigel thanks for the great photos your machine looks fantastic