Wheelhorse question.

[moogie 372]

Hope his is in the correct section.

I am going to see a collection of Wheelhorses during this week, with a view to buying one.

My question is ;- i dont know which models of tractors he has but which model or models would be best suited to ploughing ?

I have been told that hydrostatic tractors cant handle the constant stress of pulling a plough very well.

Any help would be much appricated.

Noel.

[C-101plowerpower 548]

any wheel horse with a unidrive will do for plowing

[HeadExam 1,783]

Unidrive=Hydrostatic, and either transmission will work fine. I find less maintenance and issues with Hydrostatic transmissions and they sem to work better in conditions where you might need a varied power curve as you do not have to stop and shift gears. I would look toward models made between 1968 and 1980 as these are a more modern and able machine than earlier primitive machines and built stronger and more durable than later machines. Look for a engine that the engine crankshaft is horizontal with the earth, not vertical. If possible pick one that already has agricultural bar lug tires.

[C-101plowerpower 548]

unidrive is mechanical and hydro. it's the name wheel horse gave their transmissions

[HeadExam 1,783]

unidrive is mechanical and hydro. it's the name wheel horse gave their transmissions

So a unidrive is both a geared tractor and a hydro, like a vari-drive or shuttle shift? Or are you saying unidrive was the Wheel horse term for Hydrostatic? I don't own any geared tractors so I think I and the original poster would like some clarification on the unidrive, it cant be both geared and hydro. Of course anything moving is mechanical, but not all transmissions were the same

[C-101plowerpower 548]

the wheel horse made geared transmissions and the hydrostatic transmissions were both called unidrives. 

[HeadExam 1,783]

Well okay, so Wheel Horse called all transmissions a unidrive, is that right? How do you know which is which?  To answer the posters question as to which would be better for plowing, geared or hydro, you say it doesn't matter as long as it is unidrive, is that right? I think it is a personal preference as both will work fine and are very durable.

*Further research says Unidrive is a 3 speed geared tractor not a hydro. Quoting Wheel Horse History "A new model was produced in 1958, which included a three-speed transmission. This transmission is called the Uni-Drive transmission that Elmer Pond designed"*

[C-101plowerpower 548]

hm, i thought the hydro's were called unidrive's too, anyway, i'd go for a geared trans for plowing. 4 or 8 speed will work

[HeadExam 1,783]

hm, i thought the hydro's were called unidrive's too, anyway, i'd go for a geared trans for plowing. 4 or 8 speed will work

As I say, it is a personal preference. I like a hydro because I can apply throttle and get power, no need to shift up or down, but if you are comfortable with a geared tractor that is good also. I think more importantly that he chooses a GT with a horizontally positioned engine over a lawn tractors vertical positioned engine, if he is going to plow. 

[C-101plowerpower 548]

yes that's why i said any unidrive would do, thinking hydro's were also called unidrives. since lots of the lawn tractors had peerles transmissions. but then again i think there were one or two vertical shaft tractors with a stronger trans than the others

[moogie 372]

What have i started ? LOL

Thanks guys for all your suggestions. So, as long as it is no younger than 1982 with a horizontal shaft engine and a heavy back end it wont matter if it is mechanical or hydro, correct ?

Noel.

[C-101plowerpower 548]

yep, as long as the hydro is in good condition it wont matter. i think the hydro's give the ghost when not properly maintained before the abused geared trannys. a good way to test the hydro is putting it up against something solid that wont move and try to push it, do try this when the trans is nice and warm from driving it around for a while. if the wheels dont move while doing this walk away. on the geared ones just listen for weird noises and see if it shifts nice and easy, cant really go wrong with the geared ones, parts aren't as hard to get as the hydro parts i think

[HeadExam 1,783]

yep, as long as the hydro is in good condition it wont matter. i think the hydro's give the ghost when not properly maintained before the abused geared trannys. a good way to test the hydro is putting it up against something solid that wont move and try to push it, do try this when the trans is nice and warm from driving it around for a while. if the wheels dont move while doing this walk away. on the geared ones just listen for weird noises and see if it shifts nice and easy, cant really go wrong with the geared ones, parts aren't as hard to get as the hydro parts i think

I think it is easy to have misconceptions about things that are unfamiliar. I know it is for me. I do not know much about geared tractors, because I don't own any and I have never worked on any. Taking that into consideration is important, but not as important as actual research and if you do statistical research I believe you will find significantly higher rates of geared tractor issues than hydrostatic tractor issues in tractors made before 1980. I have owned over 75 pre 1980 garden tractors, all but one or two were hydros, and not a single one of those hydrostatic transmissions has ever gone down. In doing that research the actual number of geared versus hydro tractors produced would be extremely import to verify my belief. Many if not most of the hydro parts used in older GTs are still available because they still make these hydros for use in zero turns and other pump related jobs. The Eaton 7 and 8 hydro pumps that graced such tractors as the little Montgomery Wards Hydrostatic 8 from the early 1970s and the late 1970s Cub 382/482IH vertical shaft tractors were still used on many  zero turns like the Grasshopper, at least up until a few years ago. As to vertical shaft tractor strength the older models with good peerless rear ends are very solid tractors compared to the newer zinc cast rear ends in today's LTs, that cannot support  ground engaging equipment.

[the showman 4,074]

Ive been using a mid 70s Raider 12 with 8 speed unidrive manual transmission and find it more than capable for ploughing, I'm just about to set up another C series to do the job with the Kohler 8hp engine and 3 speed unidrive transmission.

This is only my opinion I've never used a hydro box simply because i was warned off them and quite happy with the manual tranny.

At the end of the day its a matter of choice

[Stormin 4,458]

  Just a point while on the subject of trans. If possible, get the rear wheels clear of the ground and see if you can lift each wheel. If you can, then the needle roller bearings are worn. That could lead to big problems. See my C120 refurb thread.

[C-101plowerpower 548]

alain i have to be honest and say i've never had a hydro on the workbench and don't know all there is to know about them, what i do know is that the pulling comunity prefer the geared trannys for shear pulling power. anyway, imma go shut up now and do some research on the subject

[HeadExam 1,783]

alain i have to be honest and say i've never had a hydro on the workbench and don't know all there is to know about them, what i do know is that the pulling comunity prefer the geared trannys for shear pulling power. anyway, imma go shut up now and do some research on the subject

Koen, conversations are absolutely imperative to gaining knowledge and I do not believe anyone here engages in doing so with other motives. I also  believe it is hard to say the word "better" when it comes to using a GT for the work it was intended to do. Pulling a concrete sled maybe suited for geared tractors, but I think pulling a sled has no more to do with garden work than my GT would have with auto racing if I put on larger tyres. I also think that given the amount of geared tractors produced in comparison the the number of hydros that there may not be a statistical or significant difference in reliability. The more tractors you make the more likely there are going to be more problems, but I do not believe that hydrostatic transmissions are less reliable, less capable, or less suited for any work a GT was designed to do. They are however a much more expensive transmission and that is the reason that many are warned off of them, that and the fact newer hydros are in the most part pitiful. Thank you for your input Koen, as I said starting these conversations always leads to knowledge,  with only one caveat, have good intentions. It is the reason I like this forum and its members. Getting through the difference in typing versus talking in person is a major hurdle not considered and often results in misunderstanding. I misunderstand often until someone uses the the word jackass, 

[the showman 4,074]

I think jackass is really funny or am I misinterpreting the word jackass

[nigel 1,877]

have you ever had a stick shift car or van alain? i would say 99% of ours are over here

[HeadExam 1,783]

I think jackass is really funny or am I misinterpreting the word jackass

I think it is funny as well. Interpreting it and considering how it was meant are different than how it is taken and how to react to it. I try to wear it as a badge of honor bestowed by one that might not have as much knowledge as myself, or may have more, but simply likes to cut to the chase and not expound on the discussion. It means for one reason or another I have slowed the brain and revved the mouth, lol

[HeadExam 1,783]

have you ever had a stick shift car or van alain? i would say 99% of ours are over here

I have, in a 1969 Chevy truck, 1976 Ford Pinto, 1968 Ford Fairlane, 1981 Mercedes 240D. Only around 10 percent of vehicles made in North America now have manual transmissions, down from 35 percent in 1980 and that number is falling. mostly due to the capabilities of modern automatic transmissions which now have 6-9 speeds. The old standard transmissions are reliable, cheap to produce, and lower the overall cost of a car, but they are not nearly as capable in most driving conditions as the the newer automatics. That said, more automatics transmissions has as much or more to do with customer wants than just reliability or durability. The same might be said for the rise in popularity of GT hydrostatic transmissions. Unfortunately the newer GT and mower Hydro transmissions are not nearly as capable as the older models due to cost AND planned obsolescence. Automobiles seem to have higher reliability ratings, due to consumer driving habits changing, as in more miles driven. While we say things do not last as long as before we must always remember that may of the newer generations do not seem to maintain or work on anything but video game scores and fantasy football leagues, that could be  a very large part of the problem.

[meadowfield 1,900]

Wow, quite a conversation....

Th uni-drive patent refers to the combined 3 speed transmission and reverse. I've not heard of the autos being referred to as unidrive, but equally wouldn't be surprised if they all fell under the same name... Think Hoover!

Personally I would go for an 8 speed, less prone to failure and easier to pull apart. You can rebuild one in a weekend with a few bearings and seals. A hydro can be a pita, and they take some knowledge and patience, a few of us have pulled them apart.

Agree with Alain though a good hydro is great, however a weak hydro is not. They can leak, groan, lose power when warm...

[HeadExam 1,783]

Paul Said, " a good hydro is great, however a weak hydro is not. They can leak, groan, lose power when warm..". The same can be said about a geared tractor in that if the clutch is weak, the gears stripped, or the bearings rotted, it takes rebuilding the whole drive line to get it in order. These tractors are for the most part close to half a century old and whether maintenance has been done or not, getting back to original takes time and money if the tractor is to survive. Again, I really don't see an issue of reliability or durability in geared over hydro, but as others have stated, it is a personal preference. I would really like to see a tractor with a synchronous transmission, like the newer shift on the fly mowers, but more of an automotive quality. Maybe some one could do a custom build hint, hint Nigel, etal

[Stormin 4,458]

The main problem with the unidrive, probably the hydro as well, is the main ball bearing is now obsolete. Remember what I had to do.

[HeadExam 1,783]

The main problem with the unidrive, probably the hydro as well, is the main ball bearing is now obsolete. Remember what I had to do.

I do not believe a geared tractor and hydro share any parts. My parts dealer assures me that finding parts for sundstrand/eaton hydros is not a problem, however not the same can be said about the older Vickers T66 hydros, which were not as common in GTs anyway, mostly in early Simp/AC, Ariens, and maybe Wards. The hydrostatic drive is very, very simple if you deal in fluid power much at all. A pulley turns the pump creating pressure with the use of 9 cylinders (sometimes less) that resemble a wheel gun or revolver, by pulling a lever fluid is moved to the  gears in the trans axle that propel the machine forward, by pulling the handle the opposite way it reverses the direction of fluid and the machine. The main problem with hydros comes from dirty fluid and the scratching/wearing of the pressure plate. I know of only three geared transmissions in Cub GTs up until 1980,and those had many parts interchangeable with Cub tractors, but some geared tractors like Wheel Horse, Bolens, Simp/AC had many different geared transmission models and therefore parts tend to go NLA, especially those that offered two speed, hi/low, vari-drive, select-o-shift, or shuttle shift transmissions. Below is a picture of a Wheel horse D-200 hydro pump after the outside cover is removed. Of course the transmission/drive train of the Wheel Horse is closer to a Hydraulic drive CASE tractor than a true hydrostatic, but it does use the same pump as the hydrostatics and not a hydraulic pump like the CASE.