kohler k341 wheel horse c161

[bubbalove 54]

I was wondering if you guys could help I bought another c161 couple of weeks ago and at the weekend had a look to see what state it was in as it was bought as spares or repairs the engine wont start by the key but when I jump it from the battery to the starter she turns over so im guessing its a switch or something easy to solve that's not my problem after changing fuel sparkplug and cleaning the carb out I can get it to run but very poorly I decided as I had a spare I changed the carb and fuel pump just to rule them out still the same don't no what made me do it but when the engine was running I decided to pull the dipstick out and im sure there was exhaust fumes coming from the dipstick I just wanted your input before stripping it to bits im thinking valves do you guys agree or am I miles off thanks lads tom

[meadowfield 1,900]

a K341 blows a lot of air back into the crankcase - around 600cc. It's normal to be sprayed in oil if you pull the dipstick when running

[Anglo Traction 1,016]

I may not be the best to offer advice, as I tend to do things in a meticulous manor when it comes to engines.

 

Depending on whether you wish to have a good condition running K341 or just run it into the ground with the minimal of expense (I suspect the former),

the best way to proceed is to pull the Cylinder Head (it may have never been off and totally coked up).

You will visibly learn all that may be wrong with it in the 'Top End' and Cylinder and the cost may only be a few hours work and a New Head Gasket.

I don't know your Skill/Experience levels, but unless the Valves/Rings/Carb wear condition is ok, you can play around forever trying to get an Engine to run correctly/properly.

 

Certainly sounds like your Rings are worn and/or possibly the Valve Guides, as they should run with a vacuum in the Crankcase or it will blow the Seals.

They are good powerful engines, not prolific either. Well worth a proper rebuild.        

[bubbalove 54]

thanks lads ill take the engine out and get it on the bench and see what I can find

[meadowfield 1,900]

I may not be the best to offer advice, as I tend to do things in a meticulous manor when it comes to engines.

 

Depending on whether you wish to have a good condition running K341 or just run it into the ground with the minimal of expense (I suspect the former),

the best way to proceed is to pull the Cylinder Head (it may have never been off and totally coked up).

You will visibly learn all that may be wrong with it in the 'Top End' and Cylinder and the cost may only be a few hours work and a New Head Gasket.

I don't know your Skill/Experience levels, but unless the Valves/Rings/Carb wear condition is ok, you can play around forever trying to get an Engine to run correctly/properly.

 

Certainly sounds like your Rings are worn and/or possibly the Valve Guides, as they should run with a vacuum in the Crankcase or it will blow the Seals.

They are good powerful engines, not prolific either. Well worth a proper rebuild.        

 

you learn something every day!!!!

 

so my rebuilt magnum doesn't necessarily blow oil out of the dipstick any more but there's a lot of air movement. It's been rebuilt with new piston and rings - shame the engine builder thought he could get away with not regrinding the crank pin 

[bubbalove 54]

removed the head and to be fair its not as bad in there as I would of thought 1 question though when I turn the flywheel the exhaust valve opens then closes the inlet valve opens then closes then exhaust valve opens slightly then closes then opens fully on the next stroke it seems to do this when the tappet adjuster moves round a notch is this the norm because to me it would be letting compression go ??????/

[Stormin 4,458]

Doesn't sound normal to me, though I've never had one of these engines apart. Yet! Are the tappet clearances set right?

[Anglo Traction 1,016]

removed the head and to be fair its not as bad in there as I would of thought 1 question though when I turn the flywheel the exhaust valve opens then closes the inlet valve opens then closes then exhaust valve opens slightly then closes then opens fully on the next stroke it seems to do this when the tappet adjuster moves round a notch is this the norm because to me it would be letting compression go ??????/

Suspect that is the ACR (Auto Compression Release)?, it occurs when the Piston is approx 1/3 up the compression/firing stroke travel. It should lift the Exhaust Valve between 0.030" and 0.042" briefly to reduce the start up load on the Starter Motor and gear teeth. The ACR cuts out when the engine reaches about 600rpm. 

[meadowfield 1,900]

Richard is right it's the acr kicking in.

Here's the mechanism on mine

[bubbalove 54]

thanks guys put my mind at ease with that well she's back together needs oil first thing in the morning and see what the out come is im a bit miffed because I've not actually found anything wrong but she's had new piston and rings (old 1 ok but thought while im in there and I've got 1 why not ) cleaned and replaced valves checked bearings in lower end not a lot of wear there either replaced sump head carb air filter gaskets new points condenser and coil just hope she goes the morrow

[HeadExam 1,783]

A new piston and rings in a untouched cylinder is a problem. Your engine is in excess of 30 years old, the wear on the engine was not only to the piston and rings, but more so to the rings and cylinder wall. The movement of the piston in the cylinder creates an out of round cylinder in the course of many years of use. It gets both out of round and tapers, by installing new rings you do slightly improve or actually reduces this clearance between the rings and cylinder, therefore increasing compression, but the new rings are round and the cylinder is not. In many cases installing new rings will snap the connecting rod as the increased pressure on the old rod and pin are substantially increased. That said, I would surmise that if your engine still contains the balance gears and was not rebuilt to standard, it is time to invest in doing so. The Kohler k341 is not as abundant as the k321 or k301 and if you want to keep it it around specific steps must be undertaken now that will prevent catastrophe in the future. Previous owners may have been penny wise, but pound foolish or relied on the advice of someone with no horse in the race, but if you find yourself in neither position, it is up to you how to proceed from here. I would start by realizing the engine was not brought to standards when worked on in the past and rectify that by doing so now. When you have the engine out, start by micing the cylinder wall and go from there. Remember measurements must be taken at the top, middle, and bottom of the cylinder. BTW, advice like this is why I have had problems on other forums, I say things some people would rather not hear. I hope you you hear that I have only good wishes for you and your engine. Good luck

[meadowfield 1,900]

sounds words - I know I should have listened!!!!!

[bubbalove 54]

thanks for the advice guys I think ill be needing it struck her up this afternoon and she still runs like c**p but I've been onto a guy up the road who no's a little about these engines he's ringing me back to see if he can help thanks for all your help I really do appreciate it tom

[HeadExam 1,783]

thanks for the advice guys I think ill be needing it struck her up this afternoon and she still runs like c**p but I've been onto a guy up the road who no's a little about these engines he's ringing me back to see if he can help thanks for all your help I really do appreciate it tom

I would be happy to send you the rebuild instructions for the Kohler k341. While finding someone that knows about these engines is very helpful, reading and understanding the maintenance and rebuilding instructions is tantamount to saving the engine. It will do you no good to get the engine running and have it throw a rod through the block in a short time. What ever else I would do, I would at least mic the cylinder to see where you are, the same can be done on the crank as well. These measurements will tell you if you are running on borrowed time. Your biggest two worries are a rod breaking and the balance gears coming loose, if either of those things happen you can say goodbye to the engine. Good luck

[bubbalove 54]

if someone has had this engine to bits before is it possible that the timing is out on the cam also the book says that the fly wheel should have a "T" and "S" on it for timing I cannot find either but I do find a thick groove/line next to a faint line would that be the timing mark for tdc these grooves are behind the teeth on the flywheel visible through the hole rh side of the carb at the bottom thanks tom

[bubbalove 54]

also where is the best place for parts can you still buy the bits from kohler genuine parts for the k341 as I see there's a lot of parts on ebay but are they cheap copy's

[meadowfield 1,900]

the timing is clearly marked on the gears, my pic above shows one of the marks.

 

I have been buying from Kevin at bakt4kids - his stuff is a mix of genuine and copy but very good quality. 

[Anglo Traction 1,016]

if someone has had this engine to bits before is it possible that the timing is out on the cam also the book says that the fly wheel should have a "T" and "S" on it for timing I cannot find either but I do find a thick groove/line next to a faint line would that be the timing mark for tdc these grooves are behind the teeth on the flywheel visible through the hole rh side of the carb at the bottom thanks tom

I had wondered just what procedures you have followed/applied to reassemble the engine and having seen that your still having smooth running issues, then there are just 2 basic things that are affecting it. Ignition or Fuel.

Ignition- It is always best to set the 'Static Timing' , as just sticking a 0.020" Feeler Gauge into the points is insufficient. 

Just for curiosity, I did set my points to 20thou and then check where the Spark was occurring and it was virtually on the TDC !!.

Just doing the points does not compensate for Breaker Rod, Points or Cam Lobe wear and 20thou is a default setting. 

These are the marks you should find on the Flywheel periphery -

 

 

They are viewed through a small hole in the Shroud similar to this example on a K301- 

 

 

A simple process and when I had set my engines to this method, the whole running performance and even the sound of the engines changed for the better. 

 

Having changed out virtually all of the Ignition parts, other than timing it properly, the only other main problem area is the Carb.

Just to be sure you have the correct Carb fitted to it, could you post the number stamped in on the Flange and if possible look for the number 'cast in' inside the Venturi throat (where the Main High Speed needle passes through the bore). It should be '30'.

I say this because someone may have bolted a non original one on it.

A worn Throttle Shaft will drastically affect the running of an engine and it/yours may be badly worn.

If it rocks back and forwards in it's bore, then it's worn.

There are loads of small capillary and galleries inside the Carb and Needles that may not be clear of detritus, even after what id deemed as a good clean, so it is possible there is still a blockage. 

Depending on what brand and type of Carb you have, depends on what 'Preliminary' needle settings you need for setting it up, prior to final adjustment on a warmed up and high/low speed running engine.

 

So once you've sorted the timing, we can move on to the Carb issues.

 

As for parts, I've used Meetens for over 35 years and so Paul Childs should provide all you need (usual disclaimer).

You will need to obtain the part numbers for them, so if you need any help let us know on here by posting your K341's Engine Spec and serial number on here. 

[HeadExam 1,783]

also where is the best place for parts can you still buy the bits from kohler genuine parts for the k341 as I see there's a lot of parts on ebay but are they cheap copy's

The cheaper after market parts aren't as much of an issue as the actual work done. The boring of the cylinder, it WILL have to be bored, the correct end spacing on the crank, the securing or removing of the balance gears, the installation of the piston, rod, and rings, etc. That said, I might buy still buy a aftermarket kit or a Kohler piston, rod, and ring, and maybe an aftermarket gasket set. The valves may be able to be reworked. If you can buy the original kohler parts from eBay that will save you money

the timing is clearly marked on the gears, my pic above shows one of the marks.

 

I have been buying from Kevin at bakt4kids - his stuff is a mix of genuine and copy but very good quality. 

I have bought from Kevin as well for many years

[bubbalove 54]

lets start from the beginning I bought a new horse couple of weeks ago off the ebay because I wanted to have a go at a front loader ive already got 1 c161 and another one came up so I thought id buy that to put a fel on

any way bought it as none running as I did with my first 1

got it home new battery on it jumped it from the battery straight to the starter turns over no probs checked voltage to coil and it was there

drained fuel tank replaced fuel pipe as was perished flushed tank out with a pint of new fuel emptied it out toped up with fresh fuel

got her running badly but running( pops farts flames the lot)

so I changed the spark plug no better so I changed the coil no better changed the ht lead no better changed the points no better I had a carb service kit so I took the carb off was going to service it then thought I've got a new carb so I put a brand new carb all be it 1 of ebay hence the questions about cheapish parts

still no better hence the original post

with a little advice heads coming off to see what's actually in there not a lot seemed wrong so I thought while im this far ill take the sump off just incase there is anything obvious there wasn't while id got it in bits and I had got a new piston piston rings and conrod I thought what the hell I cant make it worse so honed the cylinder (as I would with car engine)I must admit that I never took any measurements as such but I run the new piston up and down the cylinder and checked for slap I appreciate that there is right and wrong ways of doing this and this way was wrong for all the right reasons but I just thought to see if I could get it running I couldn't make things worse at this point

so checked play on bearings and gears in the block nothing that you could say that's warn out it all felt tight a little play but nothing id have an issue with so built back up new valves reground put back in no probs all seemed fine new sump gasket new breather gasket new head gasket new carb gasket air filter gasket

NOT TO THE STANDARD YOU BOYS DO A REBUILD I NO BUT IT SHOULD RUN

NOPE exactly the same as when I started runs but like a bag of nails pop bang flames nearly jumps of the bench

right fiddle with the carb screwed both adjusting screws in till they bottom out turn back 2.5 turns on both as a starting point started it up needed choke but started runs poorly no revs just tick over fiddled a little more tick over just about smooth ish best I've had her give it a bit of throttle either cuts out fuel starved or jumps up and down like my granny's just won bingo

so timings out I thought looked on line static timing test looking for a "T" and an "S" on the fly wheel nowhere anyway after using the dremel with a small wire brush took must of been 30 years of build up from the flywheel found the "S" and the "T" set the points so they just open when the S is in the line through the hole as the static test tells me to using a ohms meter

ITS GOT TO WORK RIGHT NOW RIGHT

NOPE EXACTLY THE SAME I did just check the points gap with the setting from the static test and there more like 28/29 thou rather than the 20 though the service manual tells you to but iv run out of ideas now

im going to pull the fly wheel off to make sure that it hasn't come loose at some point and then gone as tight as a egg in a ducks ar*e but I cant see it to be fair

ANY THOUGHTS GUYS I NO IVE PROB NOT DONE THINGS TO 100% STANDARDS LIKE YOU GUYS DO BUT IM CERTAIN THIS ENGINE SHOULD RUN

[nigel 1,877]

dont know anything a bout these engines but is the keyway ok?

[bubbalove 54]

it looks to be ok but im trying to get the flywheel off now easier said tan done though

[HeadExam 1,783]

lets start from the beginning I bought a new horse couple of weeks ago off the ebay because I wanted to have a go at a front loader ive already got 1 c161 and another one came up so I thought id buy that to put a fel on

any way bought it as none running as I did with my first 1

got it home new battery on it jumped it from the battery straight to the starter turns over no probs checked voltage to coil and it was there

drained fuel tank replaced fuel pipe as was perished flushed tank out with a pint of new fuel emptied it out toped up with fresh fuel

got her running badly but running( pops farts flames the lot)

so I changed the spark plug no better so I changed the coil no better changed the ht lead no better changed the points no better I had a carb service kit so I took the carb off was going to service it then thought I've got a new carb so I put a brand new carb all be it 1 of ebay hence the questions about cheapish parts

still no better hence the original post

with a little advice heads coming off to see what's actually in there not a lot seemed wrong so I thought while im this far ill take the sump off just incase there is anything obvious there wasn't while id got it in bits and I had got a new piston piston rings and conrod I thought what the hell I cant make it worse so honed the cylinder (as I would with car engine)I must admit that I never took any measurements as such but I run the new piston up and down the cylinder and checked for slap I appreciate that there is right and wrong ways of doing this and this way was wrong for all the right reasons but I just thought to see if I could get it running I couldn't make things worse at this point

so checked play on bearings and gears in the block nothing that you could say that's warn out it all felt tight a little play but nothing id have an issue with so built back up new valves reground put back in no probs all seemed fine new sump gasket new breather gasket new head gasket new carb gasket air filter gasket

NOT TO THE STANDARD YOU BOYS DO A REBUILD I NO BUT IT SHOULD RUN

NOPE exactly the same as when I started runs but like a bag of nails pop bang flames nearly jumps of the bench

right fiddle with the carb screwed both adjusting screws in till they bottom out turn back 2.5 turns on both as a starting point started it up needed choke but started runs poorly no revs just tick over fiddled a little more tick over just about smooth ish best I've had her give it a bit of throttle either cuts out fuel starved or jumps up and down like my granny's just won bingo

so timings out I thought looked on line static timing test looking for a "T" and an "S" on the fly wheel nowhere anyway after using the dremel with a small wire brush took must of been 30 years of build up from the flywheel found the "S" and the "T" set the points so they just open when the S is in the line through the hole as the static test tells me to using a ohms meter

ITS GOT TO WORK RIGHT NOW RIGHT

NOPE EXACTLY THE SAME I did just check the points gap with the setting from the static test and there more like 28/29 thou rather than the 20 though the service manual tells you to but iv run out of ideas now

im going to pull the fly wheel off to make sure that it hasn't come loose at some point and then gone as tight as a egg in a ducks ar*e but I cant see it to be fair

ANY THOUGHTS GUYS I NO IVE PROB NOT DONE THINGS TO 100% STANDARDS LIKE YOU GUYS DO BUT IM CERTAIN THIS ENGINE SHOULD RUN

I suppose asking whether or not you have fresh gas would be silly, so I'll ask if you have checked the condenser/coil 

[Anglo Traction 1,016]

From what you have described to this point, you have covered just about all that should have sorted the issue.  

I would never criticise anyone for doing things their own way, only offer advice on the assumption a person is not familiar when they ask, but it is hard to know people's situation.

  

The standard to which you have reassembled/described will result in an engine that should run effectively, based on what condition you described it in initially after the Head was off.

 

Short of what You/Nigel suggests regarding the possible shearing of the Flywheel Key, the only things it can be are the Fuel Pump/lack of fuel or the iffy Aftermarket Carb!. 

As you have another C-161, if that is running fine, then I would carefully remove that Carb off it and bolt it onto this problem engine without affecting any Needle settings.

If it runs ok, then your new Carb is suspect!. Keep at it, you'll get there, and be all the wiser for it.

[bubbalove 54]

new condenser and new coil just got fly wheel of keyway fine so flywheel hasn't slipped or moved