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Wallfish

NOS and or Used parts trade

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While waiting on material, figured I would get the shape of the spring down.

 

Printed a couple trial and errors and think I have the shape close but seems a little long when compared to the original pieces. Anyone have measurements or could measure a good factory piece? Thanks.

 

Robert

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Love the use of 3D printing to prototype the shape.  I’ll try to take a look and see if I have easy access to one of these springs.  Not sure if Wallfish might have taken some measurements during his experiments.

 

The legs need to be long enough to clip over a small metal Rod that sits in the recess.

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Can do some measurements at the weekend if needed, should be able to find one without having to take anything apart.

 

David

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On 5/6/2021 at 1:07 PM, factory said:

Can do some measurements at the weekend if needed, should be able to find one without having to take anything apart.

 

David

 That would be most helpful. I received the material Friday so would like to cut this weekend at some point.

 

The points rod turned out fine. .831 overall length.

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Very nice- did you have to turn the rod on a lathe to the final dimensions or was the stock pretty close in diameter? 

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I can't imagine O&R would have chosen a non-standard size for the points rod.

 

The diaphragm arm spring has been measured, will add details later.

 

David

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Measurements from two diaphragm arm springs.

DSC_4294a.jpg.d5991ec50d048ae20e08fca7fc08e2e4.jpg

 

Length (L) = 0.571", 0.575"

Width (W) = 0.243", 0.247"

Gap (A) = 0.130", 0.132"

Section (B) = 0.053", 0.057", 0.058"

Section (C) = 0.096", 0.098"

Thickness = 0.003"

Bend at end of spring (top of picture) = approx 0.040" to 0.050" from end, use round nose pliers for this.

 

David

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3 hours ago, CNew said:

Very nice- did you have to turn the rod on a lathe to the final dimensions or was the stock pretty close in diameter? 

 

Thankfully, no. It is a standard size; .125". I did use the mini lathe to profile the end and and part it from the rest of the stock though.

 

59 minutes ago, factory said:

Measurements from two diaphragm arm springs.

DSC_4294a.jpg.d5991ec50d048ae20e08fca7fc08e2e4.jpg

 

Length (L) = 0.571", 0.575"

Width (W) = 0.243", 0.247"

Gap (A) = 0.130", 0.132"

Section (B) = 0.053", 0.057", 0.058"

Section (C) = 0.096", 0.098"

Thickness = 0.003"

Bend at end of spring (top of picture) = approx 0.040" to 0.050" from end, use round nose pliers for this.

 

David

 

Excellent measurements, David. I'll redraw what I estimated earlier and will see what I can do with this .004 stock material.

 

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Was working on reassembly and not sure if I need to replace the piston rings or not. I searched and did not see any spec on piston to cylinder or rig gap clearance. Anyone have input on when to change the rings and better yet, are any rings out there?

 

Thanks,

Robert

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I’ve not had to replace rings yet on any of mine but I also don’t run mine all that often or under normal use conditions.  Can you add a couple photos of your pistons and rings?

 

Were the little rubber induction case shaft seals in ok condition? When those fail it throws everything off. 

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Unless it's had a lot of use or ingested the old crumbly air filter foam them it's unlikely the rings would need replacing.

What condition was the engine in when you took it apart?

They will either be the narrow type with a chromed edge, or the later wider type.

The narrow chromed type were designed so that when they worn through it showed the iron underneath, at this point they would have recommended replacement.

 

NOS rings are a finite resource and unless they are obviously worn out we wouldn't suggest replacing them.

There is a seller in the UK has been offering reproduction rings of the wider type for many years, but none of the narrow type.

 

To add to the confusion the first batch of O&R engines (approx 6000) used an in-between sized ring. Becoming unobtainable in the early 1960's they would have recommended replacing a whole bunch of parts to ungrade it the standard version.

 

You will find the original cylinder gaskets will leak all over your cleaned up engine if not replaced, I was making my own replacements but as we haven't had any engine shows in the UK for some time I've not had the opportunity to pickup some more offcuts of gasket material.

 

David

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Parts like this don’t come up often so you’re definitely working on this at the right time. If you want a cylinder gasket kit like David mentioned there is one on eBay right now.  The seller also has a piston/rings set but it’s the one with the larger style rings. I’ve only seen these on the 13B style engines myself. Not sure if this can be used on the earlier engines.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/193884281789?hash=item2d24675bbd:g:l-cAAOSwlJRgIWUS


https://www.ebay.com/itm/193890235267?hash=item2d24c23383:g:5QwAAOSwtmVgJvEw

 

 

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Might be cheaper to buy another engine than that piston. :jaw:

 

The gaskets for the induction housing & reed valve must be the same thickness as the original, they changed them at some point in production.

 

David

 

P.S. With ePay links you can cut off everything to the right of the item number & it'll still work.

Eg. https://www.ebay.com/itm/193890235267

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18 hours ago, CNew said:

I’ve not had to replace rings yet on any of mine but I also don’t run mine all that often or under normal use conditions.  Can you add a couple photos of your pistons and rings?

 

Were the little rubber induction case shaft seals in ok condition? When those fail it throws everything off. 

 

I reassembled the engine after posting last night, convincing myself that the piston/rings/cylinder were serviceable and I didn't want to go on a wild goose chase to find parts. 

 

I'll look to see if I took pictures that included the piston. The crankshaft seals were rock hard and not sealing against the crank. I removed all three and replaced with nitrile o rings. The fit will work but wasn't exact. Way better than what was there though.

 

12 hours ago, factory said:

Unless it's had a lot of use or ingested the old crumbly air filter foam them it's unlikely the rings would need replacing.

What condition was the engine in when you took it apart?

They will either be the narrow type with a chromed edge, or the later wider type.

The narrow chromed type were designed so that when they worn through it showed the iron underneath, at this point they would have recommended replacement.

 

NOS rings are a finite resource and unless they are obviously worn out we wouldn't suggest replacing them.

There is a seller in the UK has been offering reproduction rings of the wider type for many years, but none of the narrow type.

 

To add to the confusion the first batch of O&R engines (approx 6000) used an in-between sized ring. Becoming unobtainable in the early 1960's they would have recommended replacing a whole bunch of parts to ungrade it the standard version.

 

You will find the original cylinder gaskets will leak all over your cleaned up engine if not replaced, I was making my own replacements but as we haven't had any engine shows in the UK for some time I've not had the opportunity to pickup some more offcuts of gasket material.

 

David

 

10-4. It appeared to have little run time. It did look like it ingested some of the filter but wasn't in terrible shape. Someone must have removed the rest of the foam because the air filter housing was empty.

 

I have the narrow rings. They did look shiny so one would think that the plating is still intact. The top ring was more worn than the lower. I did not replace the exhaust gaskets as they still looked surprisingly well. I guess we will see if they leak. I did substitute a thin film of yamabond for the tiny induction paper gasket; also an experiment.

 

 

9 hours ago, CNew said:

Parts like this don’t come up often so you’re definitely working on this at the right time. If you want a cylinder gasket kit like David mentioned there is one on eBay right now.  The seller also has a piston/rings set but it’s the one with the larger style rings. I’ve only seen these on the 13B style engines myself. Not sure if this can be used on the earlier engines.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/193884281789?hash=item2d24675bbd:g:l-cAAOSwlJRgIWUS


https://www.ebay.com/itm/193890235267?hash=item2d24c23383:g:5QwAAOSwtmVgJvEw

 

 

Wow, good thing I don't need that piston! I have similar gasket material to cut new gaskets from. I guess I could do that by hand or draw it up and use the laser.

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Took a break on this for a little while to fix the ignition on a Tecumseh powered Blue Star welder.

 

So I was able to cut the carb spring shape from the spring steel material. Edges were sightly rough but a little filing took care of that. I reassembled the carb with the new spring and reproduction carb diaphragm and check valve. It fired right up after priming the lines with fuel using a little air pressure! Only adjustments I've made is the mixture screw to get the rpms right for the correct voltage.

 

Calling this one done for now I guess. Might need to keep an eye out for another OR tool to rebuild!

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Those springs turned out great!  Now we know who to call when we need spares:thumbs:  generator looks great too, always fun to see another one run!

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Nice to see it running again and excellent work with recreating the carb diaphragm arm spring. :thumbs:

What did you use to cut the spring sheet material?

 

David

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Thanks for the compliments. After looking at pictures of other similar units, mine is it in pretty nice shape overall. Think the generator head leads were the most rotten out of everything. I can't remember ever seeing wire disintegrate like that.

 

I ended up using a CNC router after the laser wouldn't touch it. I cut six of them for spares in case I mangled couple reassembling the carb. Didn't need them. Wasn't all that bad. I did not read through the carb thread's instructions but I did use the idea of fishing it in there with dental floss.

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On 5/19/2021 at 3:22 AM, rbcfab said:

Thanks for the compliments. After looking at pictures of other similar units, mine is it in pretty nice shape overall. Think the generator head leads were the most rotten out of everything. I can't remember ever seeing wire disintegrate like that.

 

I ended up using a CNC router after the laser wouldn't touch it. I cut six of them for spares in case I mangled couple reassembling the carb. Didn't need them. Wasn't all that bad. I did not read through the carb thread's instructions but I did use the idea of fishing it in there with dental floss.

 

The generator wiring has rubber insulation, very common in the 1950's, 1960's & earlier for lots of stuff, this either turns hard & crumbly with age or sometimes turns into a sticky gooey mess. It's rarely used these days, last failed rubber cable I came across was in a circa 2006 Weller soldering iron, the insulation of the inner cores had gone hard & crumbly after about 10 years and ending up shorting out the supply.

 

The CNC router did a very good job at making those, are there lasers that will cut sheet steel? Seem to remember seeing sheet metal cut using a plasma cutter & using a water jet too at an engineering trade show many years ago.

 

David

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On 5/24/2021 at 3:24 PM, rbcfab said:

Decent looking drill on FB marketplace if anyone is around Tennessee.

 

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/857598848432818

 

Is there a OR machines for sale thread?

 

Didn't go past the "accept cookies" pop-up which hides most of the page, but it looks like a Drillgine, these were produced from the early 1960's all the way till the end of AEP (O&R) in 1978, the one advertised has the later type of starter mech which was introduced around 1970.

BTW I don't use bookface, too much unwanted tracking etc. for my liking.

 

We have a general sale & wanted section on the homepage, scroll down to "recycling center" to find it. People sometimes post them in the O&R section too.

https://myoldmachine.com/forum/24-for-sale/

 

David

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On 5/24/2021 at 10:24 AM, rbcfab said:

Decent looking drill on FB marketplace if anyone is around Tennessee.

 

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/857598848432818

 

Is there a OR machines for sale thread?

That's a fair price considering the condition of it and it looks complete with baffles etc. Paint isn't bad. It's a later model with the 13B engine and square recoil type starter. No need to be near TN as it shows free shipping too.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/25/2021 at 1:44 PM, factory said:

 

The generator wiring has rubber insulation, very common in the 1950's, 1960's & earlier for lots of stuff, this either turns hard & crumbly with age or sometimes turns into a sticky gooey mess. It's rarely used these days, last failed rubber cable I came across was in a circa 2006 Weller soldering iron, the insulation of the inner cores had gone hard & crumbly after about 10 years and ending up shorting out the supply.

 

The CNC router did a very good job at making those, are there lasers that will cut sheet steel? Seem to remember seeing sheet metal cut using a plasma cutter & using a water jet too at an engineering trade show many years ago.

 

David

 

Agreed on the unwanted tracking aspects of FB. Unfortunately, it seems to be the best way to find things for sale lately.

 

I've seen deteriorated rubber/cloth insulation before. The copper wire strands were mostly corroded away inside what was left of the insulation. To replace the leads, I ended going all the way back to the windings on most. Ended up having to use red "liquid electrical tape" and some head shrink to cover everything back up.

 

There are co2 and fiber lasers that will cut most metals but I think they would be too much for the .004. The router is a better choice as there is little to no HAZ to change the temper of the steel. I think I had the feed rate too high on that last run of springs. Slowing it down more would probably yield a finer finished edge.

On 5/25/2021 at 7:42 PM, Wallfish said:

That's a fair price considering the condition of it and it looks complete with baffles etc. Paint isn't bad. It's a later model with the 13B engine and square recoil type starter. No need to be near TN as it shows free shipping too.

 

 

I would like to rehab a older gas powered drill at some point. Guess it doesn't particularly matter who the manufacturer was.

Edited by rbcfab

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