factory

I was curious to find out more about this sprayer, below is a picture showing the two versions of it together with the usual non-existent PPE from a NIAE test report I bought. They had a total of 7 faults with the machine & it's engine during the 18½ hours they used it for. The engine fitted to this sprayer is the German made JLO 2-stroke engine rated at 0.86HP with a 26 cc capacity and the machine tested dated from 1962. For comparison the O&R engines used on the Turbair sprayers are approx 20 to 22 cc at ¾ to 1HP depending on how old they are. David

This is the problem with photobucket (google somehow manages to find the actual pictures when using image search, but that doesn't help with the original thread though), image below taken from a Drillgine thread on here; Also the previous O&R forum got ruined as the third party image hosting it used broke removing all the pictures. The pictures on here are hosted by the forum and presumably to keep server costs down (funded by supporters) the image sizes are keep to a more sensible size. I don't know how many mega-pixels 4-5Mb relates too but high resolution pictures aren't really needed for most things on here. I keep the originals (i.e. high resolution pictures or PNG format scans for documents) on my PC and create a cropped/low file size version using free image editing software (1024 x 768 pixels is fine), I use IrfanView for this but others are available, some of which are probably easier to use. I do have scans created from my manual, I just haven't had the time to fully edit them & create a PDF for the forum. I could probably upload the exploded parts diagram (two pages) if that would help. I had a quick check of the three saws that are accessible yesterday, it seems the red gas caps suffer the worst as they were exposed to fuel/gas (although one doesn't bother me as the tank is rotted through from the tree sap in the sawdust that a previous owner couldn't be bothered to clean off). I wonder if they were made from the same plastic as the deteriorating bearing cages used on the early engines. David

I forgot the token wear "chemical proof gloves" mention in the instructions, also don't forget to secure that tie! They also advised against spraying towards the wind. Some of it is in the literature I have, the Turbair 21 pictures came from Paul, the rest from occasion research on the web (any interesting document or picture usually gets saved to my PC as anything can disappear at any time on the web). David

Is there a reason why you didn't post the pictures using the forum? I only mention this as they can disappear at any time with external sites like "photobucket" leaving the posts a bit confusing for anyone looking for help in the future. Here is a note about the tank seal used in these saws from the service manual; The manual doesn't have a picture showing the tank half with the vent pipe, is it leaking out of the vent pipe or from around the join where it fits into the tank? Try asking Webhead if he has any tank caps available. There should be seals on both tank caps, check they are not split or missing. David

Did you strip & clean the carb? Sometimes the check ball valve can stick, also there is a fine mesh filter in some carbs that can get blocked (which they recommended removing if it caused trouble). Is the fuel leak definitely coming from the vent pipe? If not it could be either the seal between the two tank halves, a cracked fuel line (they can go hard & brittle with age), or even the carb gaskets where it attaches to the induction housing. Also I've seen really bad corrosion on the bottom of some tanks, I have one myself where the sawdust was never cleaned off & left to cause it to rot through. I can't help thinking it's better to clean the fuel line off the engine rather than pushing the crud back, be careful not the make a hole it the tank filter if unblocking it this way. This probably isn't going to help if it's a fuel problem, but there is a service bulletin where they recommended changing the CJ14 spark-plug to a CJ8 as it was found to be a cause of difficult starting, see bulletin below; Some other problems they had were; the brass grommet the starter cord goes through wearing out quickly (changed to steel for later engines), some chainsaw sprockets where found to be soft (the teeth wear into the sprocket & can cause chain to seize) and some tank caps became soft when exposed to fuel & early ones swelled making them difficult to remove. David

Yes that looks correct, it hooks over the top of the post & keeps the throttle butterfly valve held open. As the engine speed increases the air blown through by the flywheel fan pushes the governor vane up, which in turn rotates the butterfly valve to close it. Quite difficult to photo, but here is the spring on a slightly earlier carb (has side needle valve). In your second photo the governor vane is inserted the incorrectly, it needs to be turned 180 degrees around and reinserted as shown in the pictures below. Once it's back together check the governor vane & throttle butterfly valve rotates freely. David

Yes there is an Austrian connection, its the designer of the Micronair rotary atomiser Edward Julius Bals who was born in Austria, he moved to England in the 1930's then China, Asia and Ski Lanka before returning to England. http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2000/po/b006350i#!divAbstract http://www.fwi.co.uk/machinery/best-of-british-micron-sprayers.htm The earliest Turbair with an O&R engine is the Turbair 21, the leaflet isn't dated but given the fact the engine is described as being under 1HP it will date from around the mid 1960's (the 1HP engine became available in 1965). The price then was £45 for the sprayer & £8 extra for a wheel fitting, the address given is Edward Bals (Sprayers) Ltd of Turbair Works, Bromyard, Herefordshire. Thanks to Paul (pmackellow) for the pictures from the leaflet. I have also found a patent from Edwards Bals of Turbair Works, Bromyard that was applied for in June 1964 for a sprayer that looks similar to the Turbair 21; https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=GB&NR=1105652A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19680313&DB=&locale=en_EP# I suspect that this crop sprayer maybe a Turbair 21, it appeared on an Italian small ads website a few years ago. There is also an earlier engine powered sprayer patented by Edward Bals (applied for in 1961) this was made by Birfield Engineering/Micron Sprayers and known as the Micronette 26 & 75; https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=US&NR=3221993A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19651207&DB=&locale=en_EP# The later O&R powered Turbair was sold by Edward Bals (Sprayers) Ltd of Bromyard, Herefordshire as the Turbair Tot and by Turbair Ltd (PBI) of Britannica Works, Waltham Abbey, Essex as the Turbair Tot 2S, PBI also made a lot of the chemicals for crop spraying & pesticides for killing flies, some of the chemicals available then are still in use today, but banned chemicals vary for different countries. It's worth finding out the PPE requirements for using these chemicals, they can also be harmful/fatal to animals & pets as well as us. The O&R engines made after June 1967 are easy to date using the engine serial number code, the engines on mine date from 1968 I also have the engine dating from 1974 that was from a Turbair. The Turbair TOT eventually became the Turbair Fox (powered by the Italian Fox Engine) when O&R/AEP engines were discontinued, the last 2 stroke version offered by Micron was the Turbair Motafan (still using the Fox engine), the newest one I've seen dates from 1998. Only the electric versions are still made by the Micron Group, they were re-branded in Jan 2013 from the Turbair Electrafan to the Micron Electrafan; http://www.microngroup.com/micron_group_has_rebranded The battery powered Micron Electrafan is currently being sold for £365, which doesn't included a battery pack (another £100). http://www.daltonengineering.co.uk/consumables/fly-spray-prevent-auto/electrafan-sprayer-12v-excl-battery-pack.html David

I don't know the exact application for this engine, that's why I asked in the first post. David

Can you post a picture of the spring in question to confirm the governor version fitted to the carb and I can assist. David

This arrived a couple of weeks ago, a fairly early 1960's type 98 engine, the paint colour is original as far as I can tell, I haven't seen another in this unusual colour. If anyone knows what tool it may have been used for please let me know. The tank bracket & strap needed a bit of adjustment and some screws, now reassembled. David

I found an interesting document last night from 1974 that features the Turbair sprayers archived on the UK Forestry Commission website; https://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/FCBU048.pdf/$FILE/FCBU048.pdf The Turbair Tot 2S cost £59.50 in 1974, see page 92 for the range they offered then & the prices, page 182 for a picture of someone without any suitable PPE for using it and page 215 for a similar picture with a wheeled version (not sure if it's a O&R powered one). The article seems to imply that Micron Sprayers (Edward Bals) of Bromyard and Turbair Ltd (Pan Britannica Industries Ltd) of Waltham Cross are separate companies, both companies of course sold the O&R powered Turbair. David

Not seen anything exactly like that, but it could be a home-build reduction drive unit for a mini-bike, similar to this idea for building the Tom Thumb mini-bike (article from Popular Mechanics Jan 1970 edition); David

It seems Edward Bals (Sprayers) Limited of Bromyard, Herefordshire, one of the companies that originally sold the Turbair sprayers are still going, they are now known as Micron and they still sell the battery & mains electric powered versions of this sprayer (now known as the Electrafan). The bottle supplied with the new sprayers looks a little different to the originals, but they should be able to advise if it would fit the older sprayers and if they are available as a spare part. Check the website linked below for the modern instructions (which have some exploded diagrams that may help, even though they are for the electric versions) if you are intending to use your Turbair, obviously a lot more PPE is recommended these days. http://www.microngroup.com/electrafan David

Hi Mark I scanned & uploaded a pdf of the instruction manual for the Turbair Tot 2S last year to the thread linked below; There is no exploded diagram for the sprayer in the manual, but it does have the general maintenance instructions which mention checking the contact breaker points, other things to check if the points are clean & set correctly include; the switch is on & not shorting out, the condenser, the magneto leads & coil. If your Turbair has the 14mm thread in the cylinder head, the spark-plug that was originally fitted would have been the Champion CJ8, these are still available at a reasonable price. The most commonly fitted alternate spark-plug I've found for the CJ8 is the NGK BM6A, the site linked below also has useful cross referencing information for the spark-plugs, check the length of the thread is short reach if buying an alternate. http://www.gsparkplug.com/1x-champion-standard-spark-plug-cj8.html?___SID=U If the spark-plug thread is 10mm the Champion UY6 would have been fitted, these are also still available but are more expensive, but I haven't seen a Turbair with an early enough O&R engine for this spark-plug. Exploded diagrams are available for the engine if needed (I don't have the exact one for the type 186 engines that are fitted to mine but have many similar), as well as the sticky threads with pictures for rebuilding the carb and engine. Usually the carb diaphragm needs changing to get the engine to run well, also don't forget to change/remove the filter foam in the air filter as the old stuff crumbles to dust and will cause damage if it gets sucked into the engine. I don't know of any source for suitable bottles to fit these sprayers, it seems most people don't want to sell them with the sprayer due to the hazardous chemicals they contain or once contained. I sent the only spare I had to Wallfish to complete his Turbair. David

All the pictures I have seen of various Turbair sprayers have the idle screw (with the spring missing) tightened all the way up jamming the governor as I mentioned before. I did question the missing spring when this latest one arrived, but it isn't used on the Turbair as far as I can tell. *Note the following does not apply for the Turbair engine; Normally the carb idle stop screw (fitted with a spring) is used to adjust the idling speed, the lower holes below that are used for a throttle cable (held with a clip) on tools/applications that use a remote throttle control, eg. the bike kit or outboard motor. David

This arrived on Friday to join my collection, a very nice barely used Turbair Tot 2S. I also spotted something I hadn't noticed before with the Turbair sprayers, the carb idle adjustment screw (without the spring) is used to jam the governor vane & keep the throttle open, which will keep the engine running at an ungoverned maximum speed. Here is a picture from the manual showing this, I haven't found any references in the manual as to why they did this though. And a picture of this on the Turbair. I have also checked my other two Turbairs and they are both the same, as are the ones I have saved pictures of in my archive. David

I was also asked about the carb type for this saw. The carb fitted to my Challenger saw is a Walbro HDC6. Note that the model 20A maintenance manual has an error, as the carb has a right angle fuel inlet and the manual shows an incorrect carb model no. below the picture. Here are some pictures that I posted on the Ford Eagle saw thread a couple of years ago. David

I was contacted by revmix earlier this week by PM for information on the Magneto coil & condenser type fitted to this saw, I thought it would be a good idea to add the information here too. A quick look at my 1977 ESA service guide gives the following O&R part numbers; Coil with core & leads 400010, coil only 400305/400350 Condenser 400293 The O&R model 20A-256 parts diagram lists the condenser as 200110 & coil assembly 400010. I believe the ignition parts for the Model 20A engine were made by Wico, so new standard pattern parts may fit. The coil in mine has the Wico part no. X18086, but I get no results searching for that number. The model 20A-256 parts diagram, model 20A engine maintenance manual & Challenger maintenance manual can all be found on this thread; David

It's a task I had been putting off for a while, as I have some spare later bearings (possibly NOS but without the packaging and all mixed together) I needed to identify and I also wanted to work out what I may need for restoring some of the other early engines & tools in my collection. David

I've been checking some if some of the steel caged bearings can be fitted to the older engines that used the plastic caged bearings, using the crankcase from the incomplete parts engine (s/n 044706) that donated some bearings for the Tiny Tiger Model 400 restoration. Here is the outer crankshaft (flywheel side) bearing (part A-27-3), the steel caged type fits fine. Note the service manual states that the closed end of the cage should face outwards, as I didn't want the rollers to escape when removing it I put it in the wrong way up. Here is the inner crankshaft (main) bearing (part A-27-4), as I don't have any of the double steel caged bearings in my spares, I used the only two single ones I have for this check, they also fit OK. At this point I noticed the larger plastic bearing cages from the Tiny Tiger 400 have shrunk making them a force fit, not good for a bearing at all!! I can't check possible replacement part A-27-17 as I don't have any. Here are the back shaft (PTO) bearings (part A-27-2), two sets of these are used but I have only pictured one set. They do fit, but could benefit from the burrs being removed before use. Note the slight difference in thickness of the steel caged ones (I'm not sure if my spares are the single types intended for use in the gearboxes as the rollers are not in them). I can't check possible replacement part A-27-18 as I don't have any. This leaves the con-rod (big end) bearing, unfortunately I don't have any of either the plastic or steel caged (part A-27-11) or washer retained (part A-20-5-13-7 ??) bearing types to check this one. I suspect the missing bearing from this crankcase was the steel washer retained type, as one washer is still in place. Here are a couple of pictures of the con-rod (big end) bearing in a different 3/4HP engine (s/n 074258), I only took the induction/PTO housing off this one (they also have the plastic caged bearings fitted). The con-rod bearing is the steel washer retained type, could this be part A-20-5-13-7 ?? I hope this can help with identifying suitable replacement bearings for your engine. David

I remembered that the pile-o-bits Tiny Tiger I restored came with a couple of NOS bearings, mostly of the wrong type for it. Here is the crankshaft (flywheel side) bearing part number A-27-3, the rollers are not with it as the packet had been opened, this isn't the first time I've come across an updated part with the same part number as the original part. I should point out that the steel bearing cage is very slightly thicker than the plastic version, here are the two together. Here is part number A-27-1, this was incorrectly ordered by a previous owner of the Tiny Tiger, this bearing was only used in the first 6000 (approx) engines produced. It is also used in gearboxes for all the 3/4HP, 0.85HP & 1HP engines. David

Hi Alberto Maybe he has a full message inbox? David

Hi Alberto Click on the envelope symbol next to your username at the top right of the page to start a PM, or hover the mouse cursor over Webhead's name in post two & click the message option. David

Didn't need to take anything apart, all the information needed was in the various parts diagrams & manuals I have. The bearing assemblies used in the 3/4 HP early engines dating from 1961 (after s/n 006072) to Dec 1963 are; A-27-2 (2 sets) used for both back-shaft (PTO) bearings, can be replaced with A-27-18 according to the 1971 price list. A-27-3 used for crankshaft outer (flywheel side) bearing, part number stays the same after 1964 & 1965 for steel caged version. A-27-4 used for crankshaft inner (main) bearing, can be replaced with A-27-17 according to the 1971 price list. A-27-11 used for con-rod big end bearing, can be replaced with A-20-5-13-7 according to the 1971 price list. I would be interested in seeing pictures of NOS steel versions of A-27-2, A-27-4, & A-27-11 as well as the later replacements A-27-17, A-27-18 & A-20-5-13-7. Send a PM to Webhead to see if he has any of the bearings needed to replace the damaged ones, as well as a replacement carb diaphragm. I will enquire to see if he has any spares remaining afterwards. David

From the pictures that you have posted, I can tell that your engine is an earlier production 3/4HP one (Mods please correct the title) as it has plastic bearing cages for all the bearings & the metal reed valve, it will have been made before October 1963. Oddly the carb has the updated quadrant speed control but not the primer button (maybe the bottom half of the carb has been replaced at some point). See the NIAE report from 1964 for more information on some of the problems they had with these earlier O&R engines & design changes introduced then. I have recently added a PDF of the report to the thread here; The last couple of O&R engines I have rebuilt have also been earlier ones with the plastic bearing cages. As they are much harder to find replacement parts for, I reused the bearing cages with no cracks and had to borrow some from an incomplete parts engine of similar age (which I also discovered someone had previously robbed the con-rod bearings & cages from) to complete the restoration. I really need to identify and dismantle a 1964 engine to find out if the updated steel caged bearings can be used for the earlier engines, as I have quite a lot of them in my collection. I do know they increased the size of the crankshaft main bearing at some point in the later 1HP compact III engines. David