I decided to temporary fit the head just to keep things together, till I get the parts I need. That is when I found another PO's bodge. One of the head bolt holes by the exhaust valve, has been tapped out the 3/8th UNC. Plus the bolt used is slightly longer with a longer shank. Not much I can do about the hole, but the bolt I will cut down to the length of the others and run a die down the shank, to get the same amount of thread.
Good work on the head Norm, slightly higher Comp Ratio .
An early 70s style head with the plug hole central. Later version around 1974 was a heavier casting and the hole over the exhaust valve.
The bolt that nearly (or does) break into the exhaust chamber is a pain on these. If a head bolt is going to shear when initially undoing, bets are on it will be that one.
Can't remember if it's number 7 or 8 in the sequence, but was glad I put a Stud in there in my last one so it only ever needs the nut undoing without disturbing the stud.
A great thread and wonderful workmanship . Ignition - unless I’ve missed it, there’s no mention of the condenser, has it been changed? Judging from the number of faulty / weak condensers that I change on not quite so old engines, it may be worth a punt.
Thanks, and yes I did briefly mention the condenser situation in post #14 on page one.
I agree with you on the later canister (m1750 type) versions regarding their reliability/inconsistency. If this engine had that style, I would have replaced it irrespectively..
I don't have a pic of the back of the brass condenser/points box, but it is solidly filled.
The condenser, being the original patented design of 1921 is constructed using Mica sheets in between the aluminium plates (according to the 2 Authors of the books I have).
On this version, the whole unit is fitted into the box and then flooded with molten bitumen, so it's hermetically sealed within.
Modern Villiers condensers (mid 30s onwards-ish) were constructed using waxed paper as an interleaved insulator and these have a tendency to break down quicker (as per the books).
I decided to give the original one the opportunity to prove itself in it's quality/reliability based on the condition of the original points faces (platinum), where there was only the slightest sign of 'arc pitting' (coil/condenser side) and tiny peak on the earth/ground side, which could indicate a possible slight over capacitance when it was last running.
There are statements in the books that say these old versions rarely fail . I'll know where to look if a problem shows up.
The progressive condition of the spark was consistent using several spark plugs (non resistor).
So with a few backups, I'm going to run it initially on the original plug (Champion 8 com).
The worn Points Heel was likely to be a possible problem, but on assembly, the clearance/lift was way more than enough to set the points gap .
On 6/5/2019 at 10:58 PM, Stormin said:
Well done Richard. It'll soon be purring like a kitten. As near as a two stroke sounds to a kitten anyway.
Thanks Norm. For the few revs it's done so far, it seems to have a bit of a 'bark' to the exhaust note.
I'm expecting this to run at around 1500-1750 rpm, so a sound like the old vintage Bikes of the age and a bit noisier .
I'm sure if you can't find a set of wheels, carriage or cart, a man of your capabilities can make some.
A bit more than I could deal with without finding more large tooling like bending rolls and a larger welder Norm. A long search for the correct size may be the only way.
I reckon sorting the mower will be quicker.
On 5/10/2019 at 8:26 PM, Alan said:
Very nice Richard. Now we know what you have keeping secret all this time.
Not sure if it was worth the wait for people, but hope it is seen for what it's worth.
An overdue update which has established the drive chain dilemma and now has at least linked the Counter Shaft to the engine, so it can be turned over with the handle.
Also, I mentioned I was not happy with the badly worn split bushing that holds the Armature plate on the engine's crankshaft bushing.
Marathon job for me, machining it from 40mm solid EN8 bar. Pressed out the old one-
Careful measuring so the new one fits as well as the old one and the bore finished undersize (0.9970") to fit the crank bushing with an interference fit-
Loads of swarf later, moved it to the Mill still in the chuck to put the first slit in-
Could not see why the slit needed to be as wide as the original, so kept it 1/32" (.8mm) and back on the Lathe for parting off-
I could then fit it in a machine vise for the second slit and pressed it back into the plate-
I bottled out in the end and replaced the HT Coil - Points wire just to be sure, so was now confident that it was as good as I could get it Mag- wise.
The Armature Plate went back onto the engine as planned, a good interference fit with zero movement on the bushing before tightening the securing screw.
Final check/clean and the flywheel replaced to set the points gap and timing and the anxiety was building.
I knew the magnets were reasonable and had 'Keepers' fitted while work was done. So had no excuses left and started to check for a spark.
First few cranks of the handle produced nothing, then next turns, spotted a few faint, inconsistent sparks. I knew the mag needed to be re-energised and could take a while.
That was last week. Today, I set to it again and more cranking and checking. Finally, the sparks were more consistent and brighter, but not sure if strong enough.
Went for it and primed the cylinder with some petroil, shoved the original Spark plug in. Cranked it up with the De-comp open, then closed it and it fired up briefly !!!.
So after over 80 years, the old Villiers has a pulse and a brief mechanical heartbeat. Next week, I'll hope to run it for longer and get some heat into it.
It will be a while before I can run/drive it....nothing to hook it up to yet.
Hope these aren't an incentive to be sitting down on the jobs Norm! .............But,.... nothing to stop you stress testing them on a warm day with a beer or two!.
Ah!, forgot you'd fitted other pulleys. I suspect you had better stick to SPA Section Belts. The Section is different to 'V' (13mm x 8mm) SPA is 13mm x 10mm.
Which means you may have to stick to 732mm. No experience with that type.
That's one beautiful looking piece of machinery. Here's hoping you can get it running, then all you'll need is a period mower to push.
I am inclined to agree about it's appearance Norm. I feel it has that simple 'Bolty' look about it. Plus the combination of the colours and bright parts.
I've been struggling with progress, as I hit a wall trying to obtain some drive chain which is only used on a few vintage machines and motorcycles.
Zero response from two attempts over the last week, then tried another this afternoon where I got an almost immediate and positive reply.
So I'm over my last hurdle of finding parts hopefully, but I think I will have to make another obsolete part for the engine, not happy yet?.
Have made a little progress and assembled the Clutch/cable/lever, but had a problem with the lock screw gripping the cable tight enough in the lever.
Lot of tension in the clutch spring to overcome, so I've made a temporary lockscrew with a socket head to be able to tighten it better-
-
Decided on the fuel pipe routing, keeping it within the frame and shortest distance. Original route can be seen in the 'as found' pics.
Just the Carb end to fix and solder, as this pic was taken when a trial fit was made, the coil position etc is now tidier -
As for finding a mower to attach it to, well it did come with the original mower it used to push back in the 1920s and here is a pic of how it attaches-
One or two examples can be seen around the show circuits affixed to a mower, or like this example (off the Web) where an axle from a different machine has been adapted to fit-
Would be nice to find a set of similar wheels to make an axle up for this one I'm working on. When it's fitted to a mower, the turning circle is enormous.
Well, those of you who have been watching this have seen glimpses of bits that don't really mean much.
So I have decided to let you know what this thing is, despite having a fair way to go before (if) any mechanical life can be breathed into it.
It's 90% there, but still have the drive chain hurdle to overcome. So bearing in mind that it's nothing really spectacular, it is uncommon. This is what it is -
This ad is from the Tatler Magazine of Aug 1922. I have other images, but are copyrighted and not for public use.
Designed to provide assisted (Ride-on) power to existing, manually pushed lawnmowers at the time.
So it can be called the first known British Ride-on that was available to the average domestic household. Earlier large private Estate/Municiple ride-ons were available.
They were built by Ransomes, Sims & Jefferies for the MP Co.
At the start of this Topic, I mentioned the condition and it's neglected existence, albeit virtually complete. This is what it looked like-
Not my pics, but shows it was in a bad state.
It's debatable whether to replace some damaged/missing parts like the (left) lower end section of the Fan cover-
I suppose it is really part of it's existence, hard knocks 'n' all.
What I have found strange, is the varying immunity of certain sections to corrosion. Some very thin metal sheet parts are hardly eroded, but heavier, thicker spring steels
are heavily pitted?. All exposed to the same levels of weather. Suppose it's lucky to be able to save/use most of it.
Today, I've made up the Cables for Carb controls. Tricky job and I decided to set it up in a way that would be easier to manage.
Bolted the Carb to my Lathe tail stock barrel and the Levers to a bar in the Chuck-
The inner cables were different length from a donor source and I had make them both the same length and produce new outer bowden cables.
Lots of careful measuring, as the 1926 Carb manual says never dismantle the Lever and cables !!. I had no choice.
So with a lot of cleaning to get the solder to take on the shortened inner cable, all the ends soldered up and the bits fitted correctly-
And relieved to say everything operates/adjusts correctly -
Most of the control levers were in a bad state as mentioned way back and showed the end result, but here are a few of what they were like-
...... the Counter shaft -
So here is what it looked like as assembly progressed-
And to date-
If I can get it running, it will be one of only a handful of working examples in collector's hands. Hope to have more updates soon
The answer is 'Balls' Norm! ....................................Yes the item is the original, but I have added the dome to it.
Back around Xmas, I observed some Kiddies Ball shaped tins that contained chocolate of some kind. Managed to get hold of a couple and found one without any significant damage. Measured pretty close to the radius, so went for cutting a slice off for a test.
First job was to clean off the paint/ink to see what the finish was to the steel (top left).
I then had to polish it and measured the amount needed to slice off for a sample and what method to slice it off with ( bottom left)-
First go was 3/64"(1.2mm) short, so went for it on the good cleaned off section -
Cleaned up and tinned with solder, it was soldered to the original, which was not easy as had to use passive resin flux, but went ok.
Had a good coat of fuel proof lacquer and settled for an old small cafetiere s/s gauze filter cut to fit as a dust collector. All done and will go nicely with the now very tidy Carb.
Dragging behind schedule recently, but have nearly finished several parts which should all come together next week for a more bulky update and to probably reveal the ID of it.
Just to come back to the carb for the near impossible easy repair, I've repeated an image here that is in the link of the previous post to save any toggling for comparison.
I was presented with this dented mushroom Air inlet cover. Originally this was a bright shiny nickel plated cover, but as can be seen, the old 'anger scars' and corrosion is severe-
I can't call it a filter, as there is no mesh. It is not possible to get all the dents out. I did consider (briefly) taking the old outer cover off and
spinning up and soldering on a nickel silver one.
This rear view will show you the lack of filtration and I will probably spring a strip of oiled scouring pad in to cover the holes-
And the front, which I was not happy with, where just filling and painting would actually be more work than the idea I had to fix this much quicker.
I came up with this and now only requires a coat of lacquer after cleaning up the outer edge -
The Cooling fan shroud is of thin cast aluminium and has had a bad hit low down at the front, snapped a piece off and bent everything, also one wrong size nut fitted-
Having to make additional spacers so that the bolts do not crush (again) the Ali plate when tightened.
I'm carefully heating parts to ease the stresses before straightening. I'm using soap to indicate the temperature and it's going well, should be seen fitted next week.
Clutch cable is done but need to trim to length on the machine. Throttle cable (outer Bowdens) need to be replaced (tricky). Seat is finished ready to fit.
Fuel pipe is a challenge, as the two different tapered nipples were originally brazed to the old pipe, so I had to cut off the big one and bore out to fit on the new pipe.
The smaller one I scrapped and turned/machined up a new one and both will be soldered on this time .
Having problems with the final hurdle, namely the drive chains. These must be replaced, the originals were just welded together with rust, as they
were removed and left on the seat over 80 years ago, Spec is unobtainable now?, no sign of any old stock, so may have to rob from a scrap/donor machine If
Not long now Norm. Ailments have now delayed my progress. Only managed a few bits to date.
Cooling Fan was distorted, damaged and pretty corroded (see pic 3 of my very first Topic post). After cleaning and straightening, I balanced it up by filing the outer edges.
Then coats of primer, rubbing down in between them. After the first coat-
The Throttle controls (and cables) on the machine were beyond saving and scrapped. I had to find a replacement.
Not the best of condition, but initial clean up found it and the damage repairable-
Plating was long gone, so had a coat of paint applied. The black bakelite type plastic lever ends were repaired using original Araldite mixed with lamp black.
Final coat of Cellulose lacquer. Other parts were either original plating, or polished lacquered steel and body correctly painted black enamel-
Machine had a 7/16" whitworth square nut fitted where it should have a hex nut, so I had to find and machine/file one down to similar shape and size-
The finished article and painted fan will show up in the first pics of the refurbed machine in a week or two ............tbc
Hi Michael, I've passed your mower details on via the 'bush telegraph' to someone who can spread the word. Prices are all important, as are any pics of condition.
I just wondered if you had ever tried deox-c on small rusted parts like the silencer/muffler. I've found it is brilliant for converting rust even inside inaccessible parts and interior seams. Ray
Hi Ray, Afraid I never heard of it . A bit ignorant of the various products floating around these days. I'm rather suspicious of the old 'Snake Oil' type claims for them, but in reality they turn out to be basic compounds or chemicals that you can buy and apply for very little. That stuff is not cheap.
I tend to be content with processes that may take longer, but cost very little. Electrolysis for example.
On 3/19/2019 at 12:07 PM, Cub Cadet said:
I have used deox-c and it was brilliant, I then found out it is actually just citric acid and its much cheaper to just buy a bag of this online.
A good example Ewan. just a few other different ingredients so they can claim it's their own unique concoction, as you say a bag of citric is obtainable from places like Wilko's .
I admit to using a rust converter (trustan and kurust) if I can't get it all off.
The Exhaust is done. Surprised myself after patiently tacking and building weld bridges and joining up using 1.6mm rods. Very few spots made it through the thin wall of the neck-
Had to break the old spring washer from the captive end cover and replace it with a wide thick copper washer cut and opened to fit onto the rod, then silver soldered the joint.
Didn't need to add a seam of weld on the riveted joint, it's good and gas tight. finished it with several coats of BBQ paint.
Rubbed it down in between coats and then finally burning it clean with a gas torch to dull red heat-
It will do and should last long time !.
Not much progress, as still making odd bits not worth mentioning and prepping for paint. The all important original seat actually cleaned up well.
I was unsure how it would turn out with the level of corrosion. It still had traces of paint and or primer which could be grey primer and white top coat.
Plan is for a light grey top coat until it can be confirmed what colour it was. Very few of these machines still around-
Hopefully will make significant assembly progress over the next week.
2nd Shaft was/is a headache. Lots of problems and have had to do the best I can. The boss that the 52t Sprocket is riveted to is fixed to the shaft by a pin.
This was sheared in 2 places, so I had to remove the old pieces and make a new one.
Strangely, it was nearer to 6mm than 1/4, so I reamed it to 6mm and made a new pin from silver steel and partly hardened.
Bearings were a mess inside as with the other ones-
This one has a cracked inner race, maybe even from when it was first fitted? -
Took an age to clean and flush these out until clean, but when packed with LM grease, they ran quite smoothly considering and they will have to do.
Rpm for this shaft is about 750 max. Had quite a wobble in the sprocket, so I tried to straighten it out and got it down to about 1mm deflection.
Clamped it to a 1 inch thick steel plate and used gentle leverage-
Finished shaft with just a bit of painting to do-
Final job on the Villiers Clutch was to replace the worn felt seal shown in 6th image bottom left in post #16. Thought I'd have trouble, but got the old one out.
Found an identical sized vintage seal in my spares bits, but was too thick, so I had to slice it. Shown fitted with the old one and cut off remnant-
The seal protects the outer cup ball race, which after cleaning and greasing, runs real smoothly .
So clutch is ready for assembly now, when I've sorted the cable and routing.
The Exhaust silencer/muffler was next. Surprisingly, I managed to undo the remnants of the nut that holds the end plates on and dismantled it-
Wanted to to check it over before putting it near any media blasting. Shame one end cap is captive, as I wanted to remove it.
This end cap was nickel plated originally and suffered more from the elements than the other.
After an initial clean up, loads of little perforations appeared in the neck between the flange and cannister, but the welded areas are strong.
I reckoned I could repair this with a new plate wrapped around the neck and weld around the strong points.
I've cut and fitted the plate clamped tight with a Jubilee Clip initially for tacking it down. further joint cleaning to do first.
Got to practice with thin plate, as I'm not skilled in general arc/stick welding practices -
The cannister part is still sound with no holes or thin areas. It's a rolled sheet and riveted with a seam plate inside.
In addition to sealing the inside, I'm also going to run a seam along the end joint to avoid it blowing.... can be seen to the right of this image-
After this, it will be time for frame cleaning and repairs, before I can fit the engine and see if it will start/run..................tbc
As Wristpin says, there is much of what you are looking for already here. If you use the 'Search' box (top left), you will find many. Just using the word 'Osprey' throws up this number of posts-
If you use 'more search options', you can select Topic titles only search to give you a list of Topics on the same issues with this machine.
The Opsrey is a self powered machine, so most topics on it are in the 'Other Garden Machines.
Some links to manuals in threads are broken, so if you need any more help just ask.
No problem using an old thread to post/ask a question, as it prevents the same questions/Topics being asked over and over again.
Behind schedule with the Plummer Block (pillow) bearings, lots of cleaning out. Meanwhile, I looked at the frame items etc that were borderline scrap or broken.
Well , when you're presented with these examples, you wonder how you're going to replace them?, then try and repair-
The Eye Bolts look handmade or Smithy'd and what I would call Agricultural engineering, as opposed to Precision engineering.
The bolts were saved with careful work loosening off and straightening, plus, I was able to cut off the overlong rotted sections.
The channel formed washers on the small eye bolts were virtually rotted away, so I had to think about making replacements.
The problem with broken brass Butterfly wingnuts was solved by finding a stronger 1/4" whitworth steel one .
Making the special washers mentioned were shaped more or less using an old toolmaker's clamp and shown with a partially formed washer bottom right-
A bit of normalising heat and manipulating them to shape produced these washers that should pass as identical to original when fitted/painted-
Another job of saving scrap was the Clutch Lever. I'll post an image of what it was like later when the identity of the machine is revealed.
New pivot pin and cable pinch screw had to be made. The two clamp screws were rotten, and so I replaced them with nickel plated ones of the same age
that came from the drive unit of an old wind up gramophone.
Presumed the lever was nickel plated originally, but just coated with Caliper Paint now-
Should make better progress now and media blasting parts now available. Should be done with one of the shafts and bearings over the weekend......tbc
Looking awesome Norm! Really like the narrow wheels on the front of the C-series, best thing I did to my C-121.
+1 for skinny rims. I'm lucky as I have both wide and narrow WH wheels for the 72 Raider now. The track width on the front with the 6.50's fitted is 2 inches (51mm -ish) less than post 75 WHs.
Nice work Norm look's tidy . Are you going to 'Sticker' it up , or leave it naked ?.
. I'll know where to look if a problem shows up.
.
.
what you have keeping secret all this time.
.
.............But,.... nothing to stop you stress testing them on a warm day with a beer or two!.
Here's hoping you can get it running, then all you'll need is a period mower to push.
-
....................................Yes the item is the original, but I have added the dome to it.
. A bit ignorant of the various products floating around these days. I'm rather suspicious of the old 'Snake Oil' type claims for them, but in reality they turn out to be basic compounds or chemicals that you can buy and apply for very little. That stuff is not cheap.
.
Bitter and twisted.
in Ride On's
Posted
Good work on the head Norm, slightly higher Comp Ratio
.
An early 70s style head with the plug hole central. Later version around 1974 was a heavier casting and the hole over the exhaust valve.
The bolt that nearly (or does) break into the exhaust chamber is a pain on these. If a head bolt is going to shear when initially undoing, bets are on it will be that one.
Can't remember if it's number 7 or 8 in the sequence, but was glad I put a Stud in there in my last one so it only ever needs the nut undoing without disturbing the stud.